# GMO Foods - Safe? Effective? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522 "2014-03-12T09:14:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/161 "2014-03-19T15:17:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There is no such thing as “anti-freeze” in any GM crop, nor has there ever been. > > What you are referring to is introducing a gene for freeze tolerance into a normally frost-tender plant (i.e. a tomato). > > Stating that “anti-freeze” has been introduced in such a plant is not only inaccurate, it is a loaded word meant to suggest toxicity. This sort of wordplay has been a staple of the antivax movement, which claims that “antifreeze” is present as a “toxin” in vaccines (in reality, there is no ethylene glycol or diethylene glycol (what is typically marketed as antifreeze for vehicles) in vaccines. There could be a minute amount of _polyethylene_ glycol (PEG is a component of a detergent used to make cell membranes more permeable during the vaccine production process, which could occur in trace amounts in the finished product). > > If you don’t link being compared to pseudoscience promoters, it would be advisable to stop employing their tactics. I will just let the facts speak for themselves. > **[Determinants of Public Attitudes to Genetically Modified Salmon](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0086174)** > > The objective of this paper is to assess the attitude of Malaysian stakeholders to genetically modified (GM) salmon and to identify the factors that influence their acceptance of GM salmon using a structural equation model. A survey was carried out... "The GM Atlantic salmon were engineered with either antifreeze protein genes or salmon growth hormone gene constructs. The GM Atlantic salmon inserted with the type III antifreeze protein were able to survive in water at temperatures of below 0°C [12]. " [http://www.agbioforum.org/v15n3/v15n3a04-menozzi.htm](http://www.agbioforum.org/v15n3/v15n3a04-menozzi.htm) “Using a promoter from an antifreeze gene derived from the ocean pout, the inserted gene is expressed in the cold season.” [http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci9702353](http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci9702353) Title: Modeling Studies of Binding of Sea Raven Type II Antifreeze Protein to Ice [http://www.csupomona.edu/~stilllab/documents/Geneticallyengineeredplantsandfoods\_ascientistsanalysis\_Lemaux2008\_AnnRevPlantBiol.pdf](http://www.csupomona.edu/~stilllab/documents/Geneticallyengineeredplantsandfoods_ascientistsanalysis_Lemaux2008_AnnRevPlantBiol.pdf) “An antifreeze gene from Artic flounder was introduced into tobacco and tomato (103)” ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/162 "2014-03-19T15:22:02Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Is any of this different for GMO crops versus crops developed by older techniques? I have yet to hear anything you’re saying that would support opposition to GMO specifically and not also apply to everything we’ve been doing with crops for the past 100 years. Good question, I know I ignored it earlier, no answer at this point. I’ll do some investigation to see if there is data or logic that supports categorizing them differently. Previously I responded to posters with quick remarks on this topic but hadn’t really tried to find anything concrete other than a comment on variability. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/163 "2014-03-19T15:24:59Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Back to consumption: Few proteins survive the digestive process long enough to enter our blood. In addition, those that do enter our blood don’t have enough quantity to vastly alter expression of our body’s personal set of genes. Also note that gene expression tends to be analog and not digital: it takes a buildup of proteins and not just a single protein to flip most epigenetic switches. Ok, no time to respond, will come back to it. Also, a request: Can you help some of the other posters understand that “antifreeze” isn’t an inflammatory term in this case, it’s just shorthand that the scientists themselves use? I think they might trust you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/164 "2014-03-19T15:28:58Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I will just let the facts speak for themselves. > [Determinants of Public Attitudes to Genetically Modified Salmon](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0086174) > > "The GM Atlantic salmon were engineered with either antifreeze protein genes or salmon growth hormone gene constructs. The GM Atlantic salmon inserted with the type III antifreeze protein were able to survive in water at temperatures of below 0°C [12]. " > [http://www.agbioforum.org/v15n3/v15n3a04-menozzi.htm](http://www.agbioforum.org/v15n3/v15n3a04-menozzi.htm) > “Using a promoter from an antifreeze gene derived from the ocean pout, the inserted gene is expressed in the cold season.” > [http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci9702353](http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci9702353) > Title: Modeling Studies of Binding of Sea Raven Type II Antifreeze Protein to Ice > [http://www.csupomona.edu/~stilllab/documents/Geneticallyengineeredplantsandfoods\_ascientistsanalysis\_Lemaux2008\_AnnRevPlantBiol.pdf](http://www.csupomona.edu/~stilllab/documents/Geneticallyengineeredplantsandfoods_ascientistsanalysis_Lemaux2008_AnnRevPlantBiol.pdf) > “An antifreeze gene from Artic flounder was > introduced into tobacco and tomato (103)” And of course the facts are not as scary as the implication with no explanation. > **[Antifreeze protein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze_protein)** > > Antifreeze proteins (AFPs) or ice structuring proteins refer to a class of polypeptides produced by certain animals, plants, fungi and bacteria that permit their survival in temperatures below the freezing point of water. AFPs bind to small ice crystals to inhibit the growth and recrystallization of ice that would otherwise be fatal. There is also increasing evidence that AFPs interact with mammalian cell membranes to protect them from cold damage. This work suggests the involvement of AFPs Un... > [@](#): > > Unlike the widely used automotive antifreeze, ethylene glycol, AFPs do not lower freezing point in proportion to concentration. Rather, they work in a noncolligative manner. Unless it is explained at the beginning, \*\*Jackmannii \*\*is correct, the lack of explanation that the word is not referring to the same item is what makes the ones spreading FUD to use the term. With no proper explanation that it is not the same, it is indeed used to make it sound scary. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/165 "2014-03-19T15:52:35Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Ok, no time to respond, will come back to it. > Also, a request: > Can you help some of the other posters understand that “antifreeze” isn’t an inflammatory term in this case, it’s just shorthand that the scientists themselves use? I think they might trust you. With respect, I agree with **Jackmannii** ’s point: anti-freeze =/= Anti-Freeze Protein =/= Anti-Freeze Protein Gene The short hand (“anti-freeze”), in this case, is actively used by people hoping to conjure up fears of toxic effects by GMOs without having to resort to actually explaining what they mean by “anti-freeze” or the underlying colloquial reference of “Anti-Freeze Protein”. I understood what you meant so I didn’t bother to harp on it. Others weren’t so forgiving. It happens. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/166 "2014-03-19T16:11:55Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Can you help some of the other posters understand that “antifreeze” isn’t an inflammatory term in this case, it’s just shorthand that the scientists themselves use? Except that in none of the cases you cited did scientists headline their research with references to “antifreeze” being in GM foods. The use of inaccurate scare terminology and references to cancer and birth defects (as though there was any demonstrated risk of such outcomes from GM food consumption) makes it clear you are opposed to use of such technology in food production - which is your right. But it doesn’t give the impression that utilizing sound science is your goal. While you’ve been unwilling to indicate how much more research would make GM food introductions tolerable for you, here’s a simple question: based on the many years of research into golden rice (including human trials), do you support its introduction in countries with a serious vitamin A deficiency problem? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/167 "2014-03-19T16:13:10Z")
And if I eat GMO turtle soup, will epigenetics cause me to grow flippers? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/168 "2014-03-19T16:15:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And if I eat GMO turtle soup, will epigenetics cause me to grow flippers? :eek: Whoa…you mean you don’t already have flippers from just talking about using GMO foods??? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/169 "2014-03-19T22:11:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And if I eat GMO turtle soup, will epigenetics cause me to grow flippers? :eek: Actually, Jack, those flippers are from you building your house out of depleted uranium. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/170 "2014-03-19T22:14:07Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Actually, Jack, those flippers are from you building your house out of depleted uranium. 😛 Hey, don’t dis Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo and Raphael! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/171 "2014-03-19T22:19:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Hey, don’t dis Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo and Raphael! 🙂 They had **hands** , Gigo. Learn your 80’s pop culture references! GEEEZ. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/172 "2014-03-19T22:23:09Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > They had **hands** , Gigo. Learn your 80’s pop culture references! GEEEZ. 😃 Well, the turtle in the Achilles tale was land based, no flippers. Learn your classics from ancient Greece. And yes, one can say that the TMNT are now classics too, but I mention that just to make us feel old. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/173 "2014-03-19T23:34:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, the turtle in the Achilles tale was land based, no flippers. Learn your classics from ancient Greece. And yes, one can say that the TMNT are now classics too, but I mention that just to make us feel old. 😛 If you’re feeling old, you should have the nurse come by and shoot you up with liquid cheer. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/174 "2014-03-20T14:45:59Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > With respect, I agree with **Jackmannii** ’s point: anti-freeze =/= Anti-Freeze Protein =/= Anti-Freeze Protein Gene > > The short hand (“anti-freeze”), in this case, is actively used by people hoping to conjure up fears of toxic effects by GMOs without having to resort to actually explaining what they mean by “anti-freeze” or the underlying colloquial reference of “Anti-Freeze Protein”. I understood what you meant so I didn’t bother to harp on it. Others weren’t so forgiving. It happens. Ok, fair enough, I understand how it could be used that way. My usage wasn’t intended that way. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/175 "2014-03-20T15:03:41Z")
**Jackmannii** , it’s hard to take your posts seriously given this sequence of posts that you have failed to even attempt to explain: > [@Jackmannii](#): > > If, for example, a decade from now an allergic reaction to a GM food product occurred in a small percentage of the population, should that result in a ban on GM foods? > [@RaftPeople](#): > > If it’s found that some method or specific type of change causes a significant problem like cancer, or defects in babies, then that method or type of change should be eliminated. > > If it’s found that some food has a mild allergic reaction to some portion of the population, then it should be labeled as such. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I asked you a simple question - whether a future allergic reaction to a GM food product should result in a GM ban. You are unable or unwilling to give a straight answer. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > 1 - I answered your exact question. > By stating that mild allergic reaction shouldn’t necessarily result in the ban of even that one product, any freaking 3rd grader can infer that means that an allergic reaction doesn’t necessarily cause GM foods to be banned. > > 2 - I provided boundaries around my position at the two extreme ends just to make sure it was clear. > An example of a mild problem and what should happen > An example of a serious problem and what should happen I can’t really tell if you are just having fun, stirring the pot, or if you aren’t able to see why “labeling” implies “not banned”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/176 "2014-03-20T18:06:08Z")
See post #123. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/177 "2014-03-20T20:15:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > See post #123. That post illustrates an additional problem with logic on your part, and still doesn’t answer the question. The question remains: How is it possible that you don’t understand that “labeling” implies not banned? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/178 "2014-03-20T21:46:50Z")
Sorry you don’t get it. As long as you’re griping about questions not being answered, here’s one I asked you a few posts ago and have yet to get an answer. > [@](#): > > …here’s a simple question: based on the many years of research into golden rice (including human trials), do you support its introduction in countries with a serious vitamin A deficiency problem? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/179 "2014-03-20T22:43:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Sorry you don’t get it. So you think a product can require labeling and be banned at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522/180 "2014-03-20T22:54:04Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Some additional thoughts on the long term issue logic: > 1 - We know that what we eat can alter gene expression. > > 2 - We also know that some gene expression or over-expression has been linked to various diseases. > > 3 - We also know that scientists are just now starting to understand much of these relationships in a very complex system, much more study is required. > So it’s entirely reasonable to conclude that introducing new proteins into our diet can have negative side effects in ways we don’t even fully understand yet. This is partly true but the problem is that humans have very efficient proteases. So efficient that these proteases at optimal pH and temperature can turn a steak into a fluff of amino acids and oligopeptides in less than a few hours. There are, of course, exceptions, prions which causes scrapie in sheep, mad cow in cows, and kuru in people are due to ingested proteins that escape proteolytic cleavage in the duodenum. It’s theoretically possible but _very unlikely_ that GMO foods cause disease. Despite this, I do agree with you one thing: GMO foods should be labeled. If there are labels for Halal or Kosher foods where a priest says an prayer to an imaginary God over the meat, I see no reason why there can’t be a label that indicates that an edible organism’s genes have been spliced with fish, reptile, or foul. One is grounded in fantasy and the other is fact-based yet we make labels for the former and laugh at people who want labels for the latter. - Honesty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gmo-foods-safe-effective/683522.md?page=10)