# Go on the offensive \[against North Korea\]... agree or disagree and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236 "2013-01-24T17:47:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/41 "2013-01-24T22:17:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > They’ve conducted two known tests, in 2006 and 2009. > > [cite](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21175466) > > [cite](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/24/north-korea-nuclear-test-plan-provocative/) [from link]Punggye-ri, the site of the previous tests[/from link] Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/42 "2013-01-24T22:18:03Z")
Of course, though, what XT is saying does make the most sense, but I don’t think I’d necessarily be AGAINST striking first here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/43 "2013-01-24T22:19:14Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > We have a head of state actively pursuing long range ballistic missiles and flat out saying their goal is to nuke the US. They didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/44 "2013-01-24T22:25:56Z")
With any kind of strike, Nobody knows how bad things MAY turn out the only thing we know is that they will turn out BAD, a bad like we may have never seen before. The thing is North Korea is eager to see that shit happen and I don’t blame them. Look at their situation what do they have going for them, what else do they have to lose, this might be suicide by U.N. for them. We are not in that situation and we’re not crazy. We have a lot to lose (even if it’s just one major city WIPED OUT). They don’t even have that to lose, Kim Jong-un just like his pops could care less how many of his people get wiped out, it’s for the noble cause. and when you have a lot to lose that’s always motivation and incentive to keep your cool. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/45 "2013-01-24T22:30:14Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > US military bases in Seoul occupy prime real estate and anything that replaces them will be worth more economically than the pittance from the US military. Also, any announcement that the US pulls out from those bases (assuming no reduction in defense capability) is going to be celebrated throughout Seoul and much of South Korea, giving an instant popularity boost to whoever is currently in power. Whatever the case, any decision of the US military’s continued presence in South Korea rests with the South Korean government. While the US military economic support from the US may be minimal, in the greater scheme of things the active US presence continues to carry more weight than any prime real estate values in Seoul. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/46 "2013-01-24T22:35:43Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > The thing is North Korea is eager to see that shit happen Cite? Because their history of doing provocative crap and then making concessions in return for aid or relaxed sanctions says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/47 "2013-01-24T22:40:37Z")
I don’t know why the US is making a big deal out of this North Korea thing :oit not like they can do harm to the US or the hit any US city . The army and technology in North Korea is too crude to do any thing. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/48 "2013-01-24T23:07:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The North’s National Defense Commission said the moves would feed into an **“upcoming all-out action” that would target the United States** , “the sworn enemy of the Korean people.” That’s from the CNN article from the original OP. upcoming all out action… target the United Stated…, I’m figuring their upcoming all out action involves nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/49 "2013-01-24T23:13:18Z")
The North Koreans have nothing to gain and everything to loose by launching a nuclear missile at the US. Their capacity to do this in the first place is way overstated. The best policy to to continue as we have with continued sanctions and pressing the mute button when their Un-Leader shows up. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/50 "2013-01-24T23:19:37Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > According to [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/23/world/asia/north-korea-rocket/index.html) North Korea already has missile tech to reach 6000 miles. :eek: They have not demonstrated any re-entry technology, so any weapons they launch will stay in orbit, or burn up on re-entry. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/51 "2013-01-24T23:21:58Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > I’m figuring their upcoming all out action involves nukes. I figure it involves a lot of empty rhetoric. If the want to go out in a suicidal blaze of glory they can do it now with their massed artillery. If they were that suicidal they’d have done it long before now. If they launch a nuke at us they destroy themselves; I see no evidence that they are too crazy to realize that. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/52 "2013-01-24T23:24:26Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Besides, none of us will ever know what covert activities are already occurring with North Korea, bet it by us directly, the South Koreans, or others. I’m willing to bet that the #1 priority for all Western intelligence agencies is to determine just how crazy this Kim Jong-un character is, and perhaps silently take him out if he’s a genuine madman. Kim Jong-il was a different story – he was obsessed with his Cult of Personality, and all his sabre-rattling and nuclear posturing was little more than a giant bluff. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if Jong-il’s death by natural causes created a major intelligence crisis, since the DPRK regime changed from someone predictable (albeit annoying) to someone who’s real intentions are unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/53 "2013-01-24T23:25:52Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > The thing is North Korea is eager to see that shit happen and I don’t blame them. Look at their situation what do they have going for them, what else do they have to lose, this might be suicide by U.N. for them. Look at their situation: their political leaders are in firm control of the country and can get other countries to dance to their tune by playing crazy every now and again What do they have to lose? Their political leaders are well fed, wealthy (by North Korean standards) and receive tons of graft/gifts from the Kim family to maintain their support. These include imported Western luxury goods, like cars, electronics, booze, clothing, etc. They lose all of that if they commit suicide by UN. You seem to be conflating the condition of the average North Korean peasant with those of the leaders. The leaders have plenty to lose and have performed this dance before with good results. They aren’t starving and the people aren’t close to revolt. There’s no good reason to throw that away. And if they really DID want to throw it away, they’ve been in a position to devastate Seoul with conventional weapons for decades. They can kill millions of people whenever they want without nukes. > [@Duckster](#): > > Whatever the case, any decision of the US military’s continued presence in South Korea rests with the South Korean government. Hey, I’m not the one positing strange geopolitical motives for South Korean government announcements that didn’t even exist. Their play has been straightforward so far. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/54 "2013-01-24T23:38:17Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > That’s from the CNN article from the original OP. upcoming all out action… target the United Stated…, I’m figuring their upcoming all out action involves nukes. Announcing that they plan to nuke the U.S. without doing it is even stupider than just nuking the U.S. That’s like saying “Hey, guys, if you don’t attack us now we might attack you later… if we can figure out how… because you know we can’t do it right now.” [Here is a more complete quote](http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/24/north-korea-vows-more-nuclear-testing-threatens-us-as-sworn-enemy/): > [@North Korea](#): > > “We do not hide that a variety of satellites and long-range rockets which will be launched by the DPRK one after another and a nuclear test of higher level which will be carried out by it in the upcoming all-out action, a new phase of the anti-U.S. struggle that has lasted century after century, will target against the U.S., the sworn enemy of the Korean people.” Using the word “target” and calling the U.S. “the sworn enemy of the Korean people” is provocative, but they don’t say they plan to attack the U.S. or are getting ready to launch some nuclear weapons. They say they will keep launching satellites and rockets and that they’re preparing a more powerful nuclear test, and that their actions “will target against the U.S.” They are saying more broadly that they are taking a stand against the U.S. by developing their nuclear program and their defense capabilities. It is written to sound like more of a threat than it is. As far as “suicide by the UN” goes: the country’s situation was arguably worse during the famine in the '90s, and more recently, Kim Jong-Il was in deteriorating health for several years before he died. If the country ever became suicidal, you would think either of those would be the time. Not now, when a guy who is around 30 years old just took charge and is presumably looking to remain in power for 40 or 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/55 "2013-01-24T23:46:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I figure it involves a lot of empty rhetoric. > > If the want to go out in a suicidal blaze of glory they can do it now with their massed artillery. If they were that suicidal they’d have done it long before now. If they launch a nuke at us they destroy themselves; I see no evidence that they are too crazy to realize that. I’m not talking Kurt Kobain Suicide, I’m talking Columbine suicide. I shouldn’t have said suicide what I mean is that NK is waiting for their ideal moment to risk everything even themselves and the ideal moment for them is once they can successfully deploy a nuclear weapon. I realize that we all realize they will destroy themselves if they attack anyone first, but I’m not so sure they realize that. NK May firmly believe that they have no chance of losing (maybe the Korean war left them with an invincibility complex, they believe they never lost?). ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/56 "2013-01-24T23:57:37Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > I realize that we all realize they will destroy themselves if they attack anyone first, but I’m not so sure they realize that. Yes, they do. You seem to be under the belief North Korea is run by literally insane people. That’s obviously not the case. The leaders are sly. The cabal in charge of North Korea has kept themselves safely in power, with little chance of being ousted, for decades. They spend lavishly on themselves while starving their citizens with no legitimate fear of revolt. And they play their few allies and many enemies off each other to the point nobody wants to deal with them. Among world leaders, their safety is better than just about anybody else. They don’t have to worry about revolts or external enemies. Every few years, they act crazy, make demands, and get some concessions from the US/UN. If the UN has always backed down, it is a _perfectly rational response_ to continue to play the part of crazed madmen on the international stage. Why risk that by doing something legitimately insane? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/57 "2013-01-25T01:23:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why? Because I don’t believe them. I don’t believe they will act against the US in any way that will make us obliterate them. I don’t think they are as stupid as people say they are, nor as crazy, nor as desperate. Whenever I hear that we should attack so and so because they have, or will have WMDs, I think those people are fools. Using one is tantamount to suicide. And suicide, while an epidemic on an individual basis, would be implausible on a scale like that. So I am against taking military action against NK. I think anyone who says they are 1 year, 6 months, or 1 month away from a nuke, away from the capability of attack us is trying to provoke us into a war. I will not believe them, I will not listen to them, I will not give them the benefit of the doubt. The only way I’d believe an entire country would be crazy enough to actually attack the US with a nuke is when it actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/58 "2013-01-25T01:40:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because I don’t believe them. I don’t either. But there has to be some middle ground between saying we shouldn’t attack them now over some vague saber-ratting and saying we should only do something if the drop a nuclear bomb on some people. > [@](#): > > I think anyone who says they are 1 year, 6 months, or 1 month away from a nuke …is very, very slow. > [@](#): > > away from the capability of attack us is trying to provoke us into a war. I will not believe them, I will not listen to them, I will not give them the benefit of the doubt. The only way I’d believe an entire country would be crazy enough to actually attack the US with a nuke is when it actually happens. I think that’s probably a little too convenient. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/59 "2013-01-25T01:46:24Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because I don’t believe them. I don’t believe they will act against the US in any way that will make us obliterate them. I don’t think they are as stupid as people say they are, nor as crazy, nor as desperate. Whenever I hear that we should attack so and so because they have, or will have WMDs, I think those people are fools. Using one is tantamount to suicide. And suicide, while an epidemic on an individual basis, would be implausible on a scale like that. So I am against taking military action against NK. I think anyone who says they are 1 year, 6 months, or 1 month away from a nuke, away from the capability of attack us is trying to provoke us into a war. I will not believe them, I will not listen to them, I will not give them the benefit of the doubt. The only way I’d believe an entire country would be crazy enough to actually attack the US with a nuke is when it actually happens. Do you think they are just bluffing about reunification as well? Do you see everything they do as rational? I don’t believe that NK will just arbitrarily go to war with the US either. But I do believe that they want reunification with the South, and that they are teetering on the edge of complete collapse. And that basically, they are irrational. If they feel like it’s slipping away, that they are losing control, then there is a chance that they could decide to push the button on a war with the South, to take their chances and roll the dice and see what happens. If they back themselves into a corner with their own population wrt their own heated rhetoric and propaganda, then I could see them pressing the button on a war with the South and rolling the dice, etc etc. There are a number of permutations where the North could definitely lash out at the South, at Japan or at the US…or at just about anyone they could lash out at. They have walked the tightrope of war with the South for literally decades, have pushed when it wasn’t rational to push. So far the balloon hasn’t gone up, and China has been able to keep them leashed…but that state of affairs doesn’t have to exist forever. I don’t believe that the US should ‘Go on the offensive’ and pre-emptively attack the North, but I think that war is inevitable between the North and anyone else within their zone of destruction. It’s going to happen, one way or another. Either the whole house of cards collapses and there is a civil war in the North that is contained in the North, perhaps the South and China, or the North will cross the line and an all out war will happen. It’s only a matter of time, and it’s going to be serious ugly when it does happen. The current regime isn’t going to go down easily when things finally go completely tits up, and they are so close to the logistical edge that when anything happens a large part of their population is going to die just from starvation, being seriously malnourished already. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Oak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gary\_Oak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Oak)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/60 "2013-01-25T02:00:07Z")
A secret night nuclear strike on north korea and its easy from there on… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236.md?page=4)