# Go on the offensive \[against North Korea\]... agree or disagree and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236 "2013-01-24T17:47:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/121 "2013-02-12T20:19:32Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > Just not worrying about the scare mongers. I think we should be able to both reject scaremongering and calls for a totally unnecessary war and also acknowledge that this is a very serious issue that shouldn’t be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/122 "2013-02-12T20:24:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think we should be able to both reject scaremongering and calls for a totally unnecessary war and also acknowledge that this is a very serious issue that shouldn’t be ignored. As someone who served with NATO in the 80s and 90s and during Desert Storm, I think we can safely dismiss this as nothing more than press speculation over nothing. There will be no war with NK, even as part of MW3. This is no more serious than me trying to find a taxi on 5th Avenue while it is raining. I’m guessing my time here will be short… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/123 "2013-02-12T20:25:41Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > As someone who served with NATO in the 80s and 90s and during Desert Storm, I think we can safely dismiss this as nothing more than press speculation over nothing. We can dismiss what as press speculation? ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/124 "2013-02-12T20:34:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We can dismiss what as press speculation? Marley, I am not trying to be deliberately annoying. But the press are deliberately making this a big deal. NK is no more of a threat to you than I am. Please let me, indeed all of us, know why you are scared of NK having a nuke? Edited to say, they already have them, so it is a bit late to be worried. One or two scares me about as much as a cucumber when I have a meat cleaver. Don’t get me wrong, they are a bunch of lunatics, but they are not so stupid to fire one or two at you and me knowing what the response would be. Like I said, we’ve lived this before and got past it. Don’t be so scared of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/125 "2013-02-12T20:53:10Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > Please let me, indeed all of us, know why you are scared of NK having a nuke? And we’re back to this again. I’m going to tell you officially this time: don’t call people scared in this forum. If you want to argue the facts, go for it. Save the personal stuff for The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/126 "2013-02-12T21:04:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And we’re back to this again. I’m going to tell you officially this time: don’t call people scared in this forum. If you want to argue the facts, go for it. Save the personal stuff for The BBQ Pit. I don’t understand. Arguing the FACTS is the point n’est pas? This is nothing personal, just voicing my opinion based on my world experience. I’m told officially, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/127 "2013-02-12T21:13:05Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > I don’t understand. Arguing the FACTS is the point n’est pas? Yes. Speculating about people’s emotions is not the facts. It’s a distraction that tends to take threads off-topic. So let’s stick to arguing the facts about North Korea, its nuclear program, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/128 "2013-02-12T21:13:09Z")
Anyway, moving on, I’ll bet $1000 the North Koreans will NOT nuke the west in the next 10 years. Any takers? ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/129 "2013-02-12T21:15:57Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > Anyway, moving on, I’ll bet $1000 the North Koreans will NOT nuke the west in the next 10 years. Any takers? I’ll shorten the odds and pay up after 2 years if I’m wrong 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/130 "2013-02-12T21:25:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes. Speculating about people’s emotions is not the facts. It’s a distraction that tends to take threads off-topic. So let’s stick to arguing the facts about North Korea, its nuclear program, and so on. I’m guessing the 23 bit is your age. Banned… Fear is exactly the FACT about this question. This is not off topic, it is at the heart of the matter. You clearly cannot get that. I know arguing with the MOD is heresy, but educate yourself on world affairs before trying to moderate discussions on such things. You should take a middling ground, but at least know more about the subject than your interlocutor before arguing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/131 "2013-02-12T21:29:36Z")
> [@Undertone](#): > > I know arguing with the MOD is heresy No, it isn’t. However insulting people and ignoring instructions from the staff is against the rules. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Undertone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@Undertone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Undertone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/132 "2013-02-12T21:42:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it isn’t. However insulting people and ignoring instructions from the staff is against the rules. Don’t do it again. I’ve insulted no one, show me where I have? I have merely put forward a robust argument, not once have I personally insulted anyone. You say I will not follow instructions from “STAFF” which means I should follow “ORDERS”. Sorry but I have an opinion, I get some might not agree with it, and I will debate with them, but re read what you wrote and think about that. I have not forced my opinion on anyone nor been rude with it. Are you suggesting my opinion is to be suppressed because you disagree with it? You suggested my FACTS about fear were unfounded, I suggest they are the core of the problem. People fear NK nuclear capability. I pointed out it is nothing to worry about as they cannot threaten our existence. Surely it is about debate. I have no problem with your honest opinions, why would you be concerned about mine? Lets talk. Otherwise what is it all about? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/133 "2013-02-12T22:23:31Z")
North Korea is grand standing against the USA and has no interest in a war. They’re merely using their weapons to try to stay relevant. Ignore them is the best punishment. Let South Korea and Japan deal with the problem if they see a pressing concern. The only threat from an American / European POV is the possibility that North Korea sells out of their nuclear knowledge to terrorist organisations. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/134 "2013-02-13T00:35:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They tested a nuclear weapon for the first time in three or four years and appear to have a smaller and more powerful bomb, which is what you need if to do if you want to put the bomb on a missile as discussed earlier. So there’s that. > > Right. That would be bad. > > “Doubtful?” How comforting. A nuke is a nuke, and we can only speculate about how it would be used. “Doubtful” isn’t not much comfort to anybody. While I share your doubts, continued testing props up the regime and a bigger arsenal is more dangerous for everybody because they could try to use it, could go back to selling the technology, and because who knows what will happen to the weapons when this dynasty collapses. Ultimately, I’m willing to take the risk. If they sell it, it would be bad, but balance that with initiating a war with NK, possibly destroying large parts of Seoul in the process and maybe drawing in China and you have a much MUCH worst case scenario. Basically, in order to prevent a shooting war between the US and China, I’m willing to take my chances with NK owning more powerful and more numerous bombs and possibly selling them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/135 "2013-02-13T00:57:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Will they, really? Or do they regard NK as an embarrassment? Just about an hour ago, I was watching English news channel of CCTV, the state-run TV network (being in China, it’s no surprise that’s the main news channel). The guest expert discussed how it’s in China’s and North Korea’s “mutual interests” for China to continue supporting North Korea. His line was that China should assist North Korea with improving the lives of NK’s people. Apparently, it didn’t bother him that North Korea’s own government only cares about improving the lives of a very small number of its own people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/136 "2013-02-13T01:04:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If they sell it, it would be bad, but balance that with initiating a war with NK, possibly destroying large parts of Seoul in the process and maybe drawing in China and you have a much MUCH worst case scenario. I don’t think there’s any chance of that happening. China isn’t going to war on behalf of North Korea. (And I don’t think a war is coming in the first place.) > [@](#): > > I’m willing to take my chances with NK owning more powerful and more numerous bombs and possibly selling them. Even though you have no idea how that would play out and that obviously increases the chances that someone somewhere gets nuked. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/137 "2013-02-13T01:04:22Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > North Korea doesn’t want a nuke for offense, its for defense only And for six decades, North Korea has been maintaining that the war they started was a defensive action. They didn’t even have the decency to pretend it was a pre-emptive strike. The real reason for the nuclear program is that merely researching the idea no longer has the same bargaining power as before. The closer they get to actually having a workable _and_ deployable nuclear weapon, the easier it will be for them to get foodstuffs from the countries that used to feed them. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/138 "2013-02-13T02:33:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just wait. They have an excellent chance of collapsing on their own. People were saying that back in the mid 90s and they survived. NK is going to be a humanitarian disaster no matter what. I don’t know what the solution is. A coup done by reformers would be nice, but who knows how realistic that is. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/139 "2013-02-14T02:34:37Z")
Does anyone know anything about [38north.org](http://38north.org)? It is a fascinating look at North Korea and esp the new kid running the place. If it is correct as to Kim Jong Un’s moves to remove the army’s control of much of the industry, firing Generals, etc., I’d be inclined to believe that he is going through the motions of the same old rhetoric as a way to appease his right-wing. 38north reported that he, in one speech for domestic consumption, where the expression his grandfather and father used had been “into the future, military first”, he slipped in “into the future, people first”. If he really starts to re-allocate priorities, he can rattle the old saber all he wants. The removal of the military’s control over industry was one of the first things China did in the 80’s to build a modern country, ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236/140 "2013-02-14T02:41:23Z")
As stated, a revolution without having a working county ready to airlift in would create a humanitarian disaster - many of the North’s peasants have living memories of the family in the South, and could possibly get taken in or at least subsidized by them. Fine, now we just have 19.5 million starving people to deal with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/go-on-the-offensive-against-north-korea-agree-or-disagree-and-why/648236.md?page=8)