# Goading someone into suicide: What would be a fair punishment? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846 "2015-02-28T08:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/21 "2015-02-28T21:48:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s about it. There doesn’t seem to have been any actual crime involved, unless you want to try to use one of those hodge-podge things like “Malicious mischief.” You might be able to get a harassment charge to stick, but yeah, in general not all things you can do that can lead to horrible outcomes are major crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/22 "2015-02-28T21:54:43Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > Then we can look forward to the fastest verdict overturning we’ve ever seen, too You’re welcome to try, Saul. Also, appeals take time. And if You think the Jury doesn’t like your client? Well, the Pen-Pals are just a-going to LOVE 'em. Say, just what is 40% of a Greasy Splat anyway??? ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/23 "2015-02-28T22:07:55Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Attempted murder. > > Also, get it before a jury with enough evidence? Fastest Guilty you’ve ever seen, with the jurors getting to go to lunch & then home with absolutely no second thoughts. I think you have an unreasonably low opinion of juries. Juries will be given a list of the elements of each crime the defendant is accused of, and will have to determine if the prosecution proved that each element was met. Juries do certainly make mistakes, but usually it’s mistakes in judging facts, not how to apply the law (which would make sense, as that’s what juries are supposed to do). Get a jury to convict the wrong person because a witness points him out and says “it was you”? That happens all the time. Juries put way too much emphasis on eyewitness identifications, which turn out to be incredibly unreliable. Get a jury to convict someone whose actions clearly didn’t fulfill an element of the crime, just because they’re a “bad person”? I think you’ll find that’s a lot less common. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/24 "2015-02-28T22:23:57Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > And why on earth would they name a high school after the guy responsible for the (per capita) most lethal war in US history? Maybe “Christopher Columbus” was already in use? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/25 "2015-02-28T22:25:44Z")
I would think manslaughter at the least; maybe 3 to 10? ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/26 "2015-02-28T22:30:05Z")
> [@Lorene89095](#): > > Life in a mental hospital. A **highly supervised** time in a mental hospital. She should not be given free access to vulnerable people. Note that she was outwardly nice, charming and popular, so patients might mistakenly trust her. I’d say a total solitary is best. It should teach her the pain of loneliness. After her sentence, she should be closely monitored by mental health professionals, untreated, she is a serious danger to anyone going through a bad time. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/27 "2015-02-28T23:02:15Z")
Force her to prepare the body for burial (drain blood, inject embalming fluid (especially fun if an autopsy has been performed)). She also digs the grave and pays all costs, including the cemetery funding and grave marker. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/28 "2015-02-28T23:07:25Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Note that she was outwardly nice, charming and popular, so patients might mistakenly trust her. To me, that’s the weirdest part. If she had just sent him hundreds of texts telling him to kill himself, of course that’s still horrible, but it seems more . . . normal, if that’s the right word? The texts combined with the sociopathic All American Teen, I’ll always miss you! just really makes my skin crawl. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/29 "2015-02-28T23:25:56Z")
Just having to be her is punishment enough. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/30 "2015-03-01T02:01:50Z")
Both articles say she’s been charged with “involuntary manslaughter”, so it’s clear she can be changed with something. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/31 "2015-03-01T02:10:10Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > Both articles say she’s been charged with “involuntary manslaughter”, so it’s clear she can be changed with something. [Here](http://criminal.attorneywdkickham.com/involuntary-manslaughter.html) are the elements of involuntary manslaughter in Massachusetts. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but I’m not a lawyer. They have held that selling drugs can fit, so I guess maybe it’s not as clear as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/32 "2015-03-01T03:56:42Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > . . . And if You think the Jury doesn’t like your client? Well, the Pen-Pals are just a-going to LOVE 'em. . . . Do you seriously believe that in-prison crime is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/33 "2015-03-01T19:39:17Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > I think you have an unreasonably low opinion of juries. Juries will be given a list of the elements of each crime the defendant is accused of, and will have to determine if the prosecution proved that each element was met. > > Juries do certainly make mistakes, but usually it’s mistakes in judging facts, not how to apply the law (which would make sense, as that’s what juries are supposed to do). > > Get a jury to convict the wrong person because a witness points him out and says “it was you”? That happens all the time. Juries put way too much emphasis on eyewitness identifications, which turn out to be incredibly unreliable. > > Get a jury to convict someone whose actions clearly didn’t fulfill an element of the crime, just because they’re a “bad person”? I think you’ll find that’s a lot less common. Juries will do what juries will do; each side gets their challenges & the judge gets the option of instructions. Juries do get impressions of defendants & yes I’ve seen them played out from the inside of a jury room. Roll your dice, counselor. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Do you seriously believe that in-prison crime is a good thing? Do you seriously believe my saying one way or another will make it disappear? * * * And… its all moot. She’s been charged & the charge is: [involuntary manslaughter](http://ktla.com/2015/02/27/teen-facing-involuntary-manslaughter-after-allegedly-coxing-depressed-friend-into-killing-himself/) I expect civil to follow criminal in due course. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/34 "2015-03-01T21:03:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Do you seriously believe that in-prison crime is a good thing? > [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > . . . Do you seriously believe my saying one way or another will make it disappear? . . . You didn’t say anything about it disappearing. You said the suspect would suffer from criminal violence in prison, and you certainly seemed to be gloating about it. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/35 "2015-03-02T02:29:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You didn’t say anything about it disappearing. You said the suspect would suffer from criminal violence in prison, and you certainly seemed to be gloating about it. And…? It’s My Opinion. Please refer to the Topic Header. Thanks…! Sometimes the law is slow to catch up with modern crime. We all know that it will eventually and will codify such acts of over the top cruelty, but a responsible society can’t ever advocate a pass for someone who’d willfully cause physical harm to happen to another unbidden… while society waits for new laws. While a gray area, this Doesn’t Get Ignored and the greater part of irresponsibility would be for me to let Anyone reading this believe that it does. If my words shake some Moron to his/her senses that YES, YOU WILL BE PROSECUTED, then Good! I serve the world better by saying them than by saying nothing. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/36 "2015-03-02T04:34:14Z")
Doesn’t it seem concerning that even if someone is not actually breaking an existent law, a new one could be invented for the purpose and retroactively applied? Not that that has happened here, as that would obviously not be legal. We shall see if their hope that it can be made to fit a manslaughter charge pans out. If it doesn’t fit and she is convicted anyway, we might as well just quit wasting money on going through the motions of fair trials. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/37 "2015-03-02T04:52:25Z")
She should be spayed. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/38 "2015-03-02T13:20:51Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Doesn’t it seem concerning that even if someone is not actually breaking an existent law, a new one could be invented for the purpose and retroactively applied? Her actions directly contributed to a person’s death. This concerns me more. Existing law will be used and applied, creating precedent either way. [Sam Waterston Voice] There Are No Loopholes to Murder. [/Sam Waterston Voice] ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/39 "2015-03-02T14:23:18Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The [Boston Herald version](http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2015/02/police_suicide_urged_by_girlfriend) paints her in a pretty bad light. Thank you for this link. I don’t know if I would believe the Daily Mail if they said it was winter. This reminds me of the unconditional love thread. Because while I don’t have children, if I found out my 17 YO girl goaded a young man into killing himself I would be horrified and wonder what kind of monster I had raised. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846/40 "2015-03-02T14:32:20Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Force her to prepare the body for burial (drain blood, inject embalming fluid (especially fun if an autopsy has been performed)). > She also digs the grave and pays all costs, including the cemetery funding and grave marker. I like the way you think… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goading-someone-into-suicide-what-would-be-a-fair-punishment/713846.md?page=3)