# Goal of Judaism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648 "2022-07-27T12:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/1 "2022-07-27T12:47:14Z")
Judaism isn’t a proselytizing religion, so perhaps it should come as little surprise that its adherents number around 14 million, as opposed to the hundreds of millions or even billions claimed by the likes of Islam and Christianity. The thing is, two of the three Abrahamic religions promise their adherents, if not lots of cash prizes, then at least some other big payoff rewards: eternal life in paradise, cities of gold, non-stop celestial sex, gold crowns, etc. Sure, life here on planet earth may suck beans, but do what you’re instructed to do and believe what you’re instructed to believe and you’re going to be a smiling mofo when it’s all over. Fail to hold certain opinions and beliefs? Well then, prepare to be tortured in hell for all eternity. That’s the way the Creator of the Universe has arranged things. Pretty straightforward. Which brings me to my question about Judaism. What’s the point? Where’s the payoff? How does one stand to gain by following Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/2 "2022-07-27T12:58:07Z")
You said it yourself: They’re not a proselytizing religion. It’s odd to go from saying that they don’t, to asking how they do it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/3 "2022-07-27T13:07:11Z")
For what it’s worth, we’re discussing a lot of these concepts over here: > [@Judaism rewards and punishments](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545): > > In other thread, @Keeve states: This is not my understanding – I thought there wasn’t really an afterlife in Judaism and that virtue was basically its own reward. Can someone elaborate? @Keeve also states: Two questions – If there is an afterlife, is being Jewish is worse than not being Jewish, because you have more responsibilities in order to get in? It seems like you would be better, Pascal’s wager-wise, being an atheist than a Jew, if the actual God is the Jewish one. Second, are you… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/4 "2022-07-27T13:09:26Z")
The question is not really about proselytizing, which is attempting to convert others to your belief system - it’s about the reason for believing/doing as you were instructed. The question assumes that people would only do those things if there were an afterlife in which they would be either rewarded or punished (or that the reward/punishment would come in this life, although it’s pretty clear to me that Judaism doesn’t include that belief) . There are people who use the reward/punishment concept to proselytize - but there are also many who believe in that concept and don’t try to convert anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/5 "2022-07-27T13:13:20Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > For what it’s worth, we’re discussing a lot of these concepts over here: I didn’t see that. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/6 "2022-07-27T13:21:38Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > The thing is, two of the three Abrahamic religions promise their adherents, if not lots of cash prizes, then at least some other big payoff rewards: eternal life in paradise, cities of gold, non-stop celestial sex, gold crowns, etc. Sure, life here on planet earth may suck beans, but do what you’re instructed to do and believe what you’re instructed to believe and you’re going to be a smiling mofo when it’s all over. Fail to hold certain opinions and beliefs? Well then, prepare to be tortured in hell for all eternity. That’s the way the Creator of the Universe has arranged things. Pretty straightforward. > > Which brings me to my question about Judaism. What’s the point? Where’s the payoff? How does one stand to gain by following Judaism? I disagree with your “two of the three.” I’d say all three, including Judaism. In this context (reward and punishment in the afterlife), the main difference that I see between Judaism and the others is that Judaism is a LOT more restrained in describing the exact nature of the rewards and punishments. Very little mention of wings and harps, or fire and brimstone. Not a zero amount, but whenever such descriptions do show up, they’re understood as allegorical. Really wonderful rewards and really awful punishments, but beyond our understanding or ability to describe. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/7 "2022-07-27T13:29:42Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Which brings me to my question about Judaism. What’s the point? Where’s the payoff? How does one stand to gain by following Judaism? The goal of Judaism is not personal reward. It’s about creating a better world (_tikkun olam_) for all and the idea that this accomplished by performing _mitzvot_, which means both “commandment” and “good deed.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/8 "2022-07-27T13:33:34Z")
Well, the lure certainly isn’t the food (with rare exceptions). ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/9 "2022-07-27T13:37:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > The question is not really about proselytizing, which is attempting to convert others to your belief system - it’s about the reason for believing/doing as you were instructed. The question assumes that people would only do those things if there were an afterlife in which they would be either rewarded or punished I’m going to have to modify my previous comment. Another difference between Judaism and the others (besides being vague about describing the rewards and punishments) is that we put less emphasis on them. Yes, those promises and threats are there, but they are not – as you noticed – the main motivation for doing God’s will. In my experience, the main emphasis in Judaism is on responsibility and obligation. When learning of a new Jewish practice, a typical Jewish response is not likely to be, “And what happens if I refuse to follow that?” It is more likely something like, “What’s the reason behind that? What makes it so important?” I am NOT saying that every Jew (or even most) will react by accepting and following every rule they find. But the motivation will be about — I now see that [sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic) beat me to it – about improving the world as per God’s instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/10 "2022-07-27T13:37:39Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Which brings me to my question about Judaism. What’s the point? Where’s the payoff? How does one stand to gain by following Judaism? It’s very hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around the fact that Judaism doesn’t compare 1:1 with other, more modern religions. Remember that Judaism is an ethnicity, a culture, and a religion all at once. Imagine you had a friend who was, say, a full-blooded Cherokee. This friend of yours participates in many of the cultural institutions of Cherokee life (whatever those may be). Would you be similarly confused? Would you wonder what the ‘payoff’ is for him? Or would you readily understand that being part of the tribe **is** the payoff? That your friend’s participation connects him to his present, his past, and his community in a very concrete way? It’s the same for Jews. Our religious identity is a subset of our broader tribal identity. It’s not about ‘standing to gain’ something. It’s simply about **being.** ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/11 "2022-07-27T13:44:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Remember that Judaism is an ethnicity, a culture, and a religion all at once. > Imagine you had a friend who was, say, a full-blooded Cherokee. This friend of yours participates in many of the cultural institutions of Cherokee life. Would you be similarly confused? This, I think, gets close to the heart of the matter. In this sense, one is more or less born with the expectation that of course one will absorb the culture. I wonder what percent have converted to Judaism, as opposed to being born into it? Probably a pretty small percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/12 "2022-07-27T13:47:06Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > one is more or less born with the expectation that of course one will absorb the culture. I think this is true of literally every culture on earth, yes? It’s just how human society operates. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/13 "2022-07-27T13:57:28Z")
In one sense yes, but it seems being jewish as a cultural identity necessarily entails the religion as an essential component. That’s not necessarily true here in the US where religion is concerned. What I mean is it’s safe to say that Christianity is the dominant religion in the US. I’ve lived most of my life in the US. I have undoubtedly absorbed more than a few Christian values simply by virtue of being in this geographic locale. If, however, I moved to, say, Algeria I would NOT self-identify as a ‘Christian’. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/14 "2022-07-27T14:13:50Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Judaism isn’t a proselytizing religion, so perhaps it should come as little surprise that its adherents number around 14 million, as opposed to the hundreds of millions or even billions claimed by the likes > of Islam and Christianity. Maybe not now, but it certainly was, up to the 7th century and maybe a bit later. I believe the surge of Islam put a stop to that, even though the two religions at some places and times worked toward a common goal, e.g. the Iberian peninsula. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Remember that Judaism is an ethnicity, a culture, and a religion all at once. Wait, what? Are you saying it’s _one_ ethnicity? Sephardi and Ashkenazi are the same ethnicity? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/15 "2022-07-27T14:16:26Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > but it seems being jewish as a cultural identity necessarily entails the religion as an essential component. Have you ever seen American federalism modeled as layer cake vs marble cake? It describes how early federalism had clearly defined degrees of separation but, over time, they’ve become more mixed. [![](https://oercommons.s3.amazonaws.com/media/editor/127819/image_ZIt5ji4.png) ](https://oercommons.s3.amazonaws.com/media/editor/127819/image_ZIt5ji4.png) Judaism is the marble cake. It’s all mixed together. You can’t really isolate any singular component of the tribal identity from the others. There are atheist Jews who keep kosher and secular Jews who go to synagogue. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Wait, what? Are you saying it’s _one_ ethnicity? Sephardi and Ashkenazi are the same ethnicity? Neither ‘ethnicity,’ ‘culture,’ nor ‘religion’ are particularly good words to describe the concept holistically, but it gets the point across easily. ‘Tribal’ is better, but also requires more explanation. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/16 "2022-07-27T14:57:26Z")
People keep trying to put “reasons” onto many Jewish beliefs. E.g., not eating pork. That’s obviously to avoid trichinosis, right? Wrong. That’s because the Big Guy says so. Period. Similarly, why should people obey all the other Laws? Same reason. Now, it’s easy to find a lot of Jewish people, including Rabbis and such, who do speculate about the “reasons” behind such Laws, but that’s not the core philosophy. It’s sometimes really hard for people of other beliefs to get this. ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/17 "2022-07-27T15:44:00Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > _I wonder what percent have converted to Judaism, as opposed to being born into it? Probably a pretty small percentage._ My wife is a convert. I have no hard numbers regarding the temple she attends, but the overall membership is small, perhaps a couple hundred, and in the 4 or 5 years since she converted, there have been quite a few people take the plunge. They might amount to 5% of the congregation, and they are often the most active. And there are lot of “mixed marriages,” like us. Although I am not Jewish, I am a member of the temple and we both attend shabbat services and the many holiday events. The people I’ve met have always been welcoming to me. No one has ever even broached the idea of converting me. Chabad Jews might proselytize Reformed Jews, but Jews don’t actively try to convert people of other faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/18 "2022-07-27T15:50:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, the lure certainly isn’t the food (with rare exceptions). 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/19 "2022-07-27T18:00:26Z")
Okay. Somebody isn’t getting kugel. Back To The OP The goal is to be a good person and do good deeds. The Torah is explicit that a person does not have to be Jewish to be righteous. As has been mentioned, conversion to Judaism is discouraged. Fred Rogers for example was a very righteous man. He also ate pork, shellfish and cheeseburgers. This was not a sin as he was not Jewish. Why have him convert and then take on all the extra responsibilities of Judaism? It’s a lot like the SDMB. The Lord spaketh saying “Don’t be a jerk!”. We look to the Torah and Talmud for how exactly to not be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648/20 "2022-07-28T00:22:42Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > In one sense yes, but it seems being jewish as a cultural identity necessarily entails the religion as an essential component I must disagree. I identify as culturally Jewish, but the religion doesn’t interest me at all. In fact I identify as an atheist. I once met a rabbi who was an atheist, [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goal-of-judaism/968648.md?page=2)