# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/1 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")
From [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5920578#post5920578) > [@gobear](#): > > Christians do not believe in love, they believe in power divorced from virtue and control without limits. > [@](#): > > _My apologies for the side-comment on Christian belief. I’m not sorry for the content and have no problems defending it in another thread, but I don’t want to sidetrack this discussion. So just ignore it._ Here you go, pal. Defend away… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/2 "2005-03-07T21:01:36Z")
Meh, you call this a Pitting? Let me ask you a question: Are you saved by works or by faith? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/3 "2005-03-07T21:03:30Z")
Me, I’m saved by F5 or Ctrl-S, depending. Sometimes even :wq. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/4 "2005-03-07T21:03:31Z")
leander, Question: Do you disagree with the position taken by **gobear** , or are you just trying to get folks to come in here and insult him? I ask because I did not notice a link to this thread in the thread that prompted this pitting and because you seem to not have taken any actual position. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/5 "2005-03-07T21:05:15Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Meh, you call this a Pitting? > > Let me ask you a question: > > Are you saved by works or by faith? Not really a “pitting”, per se; you offered to defend your statement and I’m giving you a place to do just that. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/6 "2005-03-07T21:09:32Z")
I’ve seen this movie before. Gobear comes in, restates his prejudices as fact, supports them with some anecdotes, packages it all up with some spicy ad hominems, and declares victory. Skip to the denouement… Gobear has since been both flamed and gently chastised by those who know him to ‘be a good person with passionate views’ or same such lofty crap – and following this gentle urging, he conditionally retracts some of his comments and fucks off. Roll credits. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/7 "2005-03-07T21:11:06Z")
I used to have a ton of respect for **gobear** , then I saw what he thinks of me on a core level. I write him off as a test of faith. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/8 "2005-03-07T21:13:12Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > leander, Question: Do you disagree with the position taken by **gobear** , or are you just trying to get folks to come in here and insult him? I ask because I did not notice a link to this thread in the thread that prompted this pitting and because you seem to not have taken any actual position. Yes, I do disagree with his statement as a blanket generalization. There are indeed (IMHO) so-called “Christians” who have attempted to hijack the faith, and who have twisted the true teachings of Jesus to some perverted end. But to group and label all Christians as **gobear** did (and does, often) is just as stupid as when bible-thumpers label all homosexuals as deviant, evil, etc. In fact, the apparent bigotry is ironically similar. The purpose of this thread is to get an explanation and “defense”, if you will, from **gobear** in re: his statement. I would hope folks won’t pile on – course, that may be difficult if he is endorsing some kind of bigotry. I’ll go place a link in the other thread now. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/9 "2005-03-07T21:13:25Z")
Meh. **gobear** may or may not have a huge chip on his shoulder about religion, but in this case, it’s pretty clear that he was just riding along with the specific contextual definition of ‘Christians’ that **Xan** (to whom he happened to be responding) had already established. If he’d said '_these particular_ Christians… it would have been a bit clearer, but… meh. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/10 "2005-03-07T21:16:29Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > I’ve seen this movie before. Gobear comes in, restates his prejudices as fact, supports them with some anecdotes, packages it all up with some spicy ad hominems, and declares victory. > > Skip to the denouement… Gobear has since been both flamed and gently chastised by those who know him to ‘be a good person with passionate views’ or same such lofty crap – and following this gentle urging, he conditionally retracts some of his comments and fucks off. Roll credits. You forgot the part where he’ll criticize someone for not being Christ like because they swear or call other posters names. Other than that though, you’re right…seems a bit pointless to reply the bit yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/11 "2005-03-07T21:18:01Z")
Or put more simply; why are you pitting **gobear** for a blanket statement about Christianity, but not pitting **Xan** for a blanket statement about Christianity, in the same thread, evoking **gobear** ’s response - this statement: > [@Xan](#): > > Also I don’t understand how Christians can say that in the bible “God is love” but yet two men or two women loving each other can be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/12 "2005-03-07T21:26:21Z")
I wonder if us Catholics changed the title from Holy Roman Catholic Church to The 20% Society, if we’d get some special “you can’t say anything bad about us ever” special status? ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/13 "2005-03-07T21:30:36Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Or put more simply; why are you pitting **gobear** for a blanket statement about Christianity, but not pitting **Xan** for a blanket statement about Christianity, in the same thread, evoking **gobear** ’s response - this statement: I didn’t mean to make such a generalization and I’m truly sorry if I’ve offended anyone. I know for a fact not all Christians are like this (Polycarp, Siege, and lots of other board Christians) I was kinda tired when I made the thread and wasn’t as clear as I could have been. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/14 "2005-03-07T21:30:52Z")
The Bible teaches that one is saved by faith, not by one’s own efforts. Thus one’s acts of love and compassion won’t keep one out of Hell. One can only be saved from damnation by repenting and accepting Jesus as Lord. So right there we have the principle that it is power, not virtue, that saves in the Christian faith. I’m sorry you thinj it’s a slam, but the essential Christian doctrine common to both Catholics and Protestants emphasizes obedience to power, not virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/15 "2005-03-07T21:32:07Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > You forgot the part where he’ll criticize someone for not being Christ like because they swear or call other posters names. > > Other than that though, you’re right…seems a bit pointless to reply the bit yet again. Well, it could be an episode with the rarer After School Special scene, in which our protagonist declares that he is misunderstood and must leave the boards for a time. This is followed by a couple of sad smilies, a busty lifeguard bouncing across the screen in a red swimsuit to the accompaniment of a powerballad, and then the action resumes. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/16 "2005-03-07T21:37:20Z")
Speaking as a Christian, I humbly suggest that he who has never generalized make the first Pit post. Yeah, **Gobear** is guilty of a gross stereotyping here. And if pressed, he’ll say, “I didn’t mean you, Poly, or **Siege** or **Baker** or **RTFirefly** or **Triskadecamus**.” But why bother pressing? Especially when, a couple of threads over, you can find how all us Liberals _really_ want statist socialism, and all the Libertarians really want anarchy, and all the atheists think that way because they hate God, and even all the pedophiles are actual or potential child molesters. It takes very little digging to find counterexamples to **any** generalization about human behavior that’s ever been stated on this board. Most of us Dopers **know** what **gobear** means by what he said. And some of us have the questionable privilege of knowing why he feels that way. (“Questionable” because my heart ached for him for a week after having read it.) So how about we cut him a little slack on this one? Strangely enough, Somebody said that that sort of thing is the proper thing to do. Of course, bringing Him into this argument might ruin a perfectly good Pitting, but what the hey! ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/17 "2005-03-07T21:38:46Z")
People are always ripping into **gobear** for his unapologetic views. But I understand where he’s coming from. It is really hard to be queer in a Christian culture, especially if you’re not Christian yourself. It is really hard to hear every day that a group believing in a religion you find a bit absurd condemning you without any provocation whatever. It is really hard to find out that there are people in power who take these jackasses seriously – that elections can be won – that people’s jobs and homes and safety can be compromised, because the law scrolls of an ancient hill tribe declared your form of love taboo along with bacon and cotton-polyesther blend. And then you’re told not to be insulting to the members of this religion, because some of the more open-minded ones (_most_ of whom are quite meek and mild, especially in political discussion) might get offended. Well, you know what? Sometimes you’re too exhausted to care. Sometimes, being on the 24-hour defensive against people you’ve done nothing to makes it impossible to be civil. Sometimes you can’t help but wish the entire religion gone. Sometimes you fantasize about a _Left Behind_ scenario – thank goodness, they all got pulled into the sky! Sometimes you can’t help fantasizing about how much better the world would be if Yeeoshua bar Yoseph had gone into carpentry like his old man. Most days, I can remind myself that I know good Christians, that I know queer Christians who aren’t self-loathing, that there are different ways to interpret a holy text, and that – in spite of creeping tendency of Canada’s far-right party to embrace theocracy – the majority in this country still believe in keeping freedom of religion intact. Most days I can be polite. And then sometimes – in spite of myself, in spite my best intentions – I wonder how much better the world would be if the Romans had had more lions. I’m sorry, that’s mean, and I’m not wishing death on anyone, but sometimes the thought does cross my mind in frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/18 "2005-03-07T21:41:07Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > I didn’t mean to make such a generalization and I’m truly sorry if I’ve offended anyone. I know for a fact not all Christians are like this (Polycarp, Siege, and lots of other board Christians) I was kinda tired when I made the thread and wasn’t as clear as I could have been. Don’t worry - everyone understood what you meant; everyone understood what **gobear** meant; this pit thread is a pointless formality; a storm in a teacup. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/19 "2005-03-07T21:42:32Z")
I thought Catholics believed that both faith _and_ works were required. Is that wrong? I admit, I picked up that factoid from an episode of _The West Wing_, so I take it with a grain of salt. On the other hand, it was one of the good ones, before Sorkin left the show, so maybe there’s something to it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/20 "2005-03-07T21:43:16Z")
And to provide Scriptural backup: > [@](#): > > _Romans 1:17-18_ > For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. > > _Ephesians 2:9=8-9_ > For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: > Not of works, lest any man should boast I’d be happy to discuss the implications of Scriptural doctrine, but it seems you would rather whine that your faith is being maligned, than participate in a conversation of the meaning of soteriological texts in the Bible. This has nothinbg to do with the relative niceness of individual Christians, but the meaning of the texts and the underpinnings of faith. But every single time this comnes up, the thread devolves in to “Gobear is mean to Christians” and not “Gobear has serious problems with the moral dimensions of Christian doctrine.” Come back when you act like grownups, and maybe bone up on your Bible when you get the chance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=2)