# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/281 "2005-03-10T21:09:35Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > But isn’t a conversion experience necessaary to call oneself a Christian?\> Even for people raised in chrsitian homes by Christians, is there not a point where the child is required to consent to his denomination’s doctrines. As a Catholic, a church that definitely frowns on so-called evangelical conversion experiences, I underwent the sacrament of Confirmation, where I was required to given, “I believe” to a set of propositions given by the presiding bishop. I get on a backwoods Florida road, headed north. At some point, I will encounter a street sign, or I’ll notice a change in licence plates, or on the cop cars, and I’ll realize that I’ve made it into Georgia. But only in the past tense: I may have crossed the line five minutes ago or an hour; I don’t rightly know. Which is not to say that some people don’t take the sorts of roads that had big painted signs saying “Georgia State Line.” But I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/282 "2005-03-10T22:01:40Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > The reason that the nasty statements by Falwell, Dobson, et. al. get press is _because_ their shocking and outrageous. The public image of Christianity in this country is controlled more by the media and manipulative politicians of all stripes then it is by the majority of believers. Saying that it’s as if a sizeable minority doesn’t exist because they’re not as loud is ridiculous. You might not be able to out-shock them, the conservative Christians, but you could take aim at the problem, the bias of the media. Yell and scream at them for portraying such a lopsided representation of Christianity. Seriously, this is a problem and until it’s addressed, conservative Christians have dominated the debate and the progessive/liberal Christians are SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/283 "2005-03-10T22:20:24Z")
You know, when folks start passing laws, I don’t care what their religion is then either. I care about their laws! Just sayin’, ya know. Tris ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/284 "2005-03-10T22:25:36Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > must ask why you consider the Right Wing the vocal minority FinnAgain? Cite for me saying any such thing? Not all Christians are on the right, and not all Christians who are on the right are schmucks. Only the vocal minority of Christian Theocrats on the right bug me, the rest are ok in my book. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > I don’t think I said “all christians”. I said christians. It certainly isn’t Buddhists I’m having a hard time with in this country! It’s not Christians either. It’s a pack of crazy people who happen to be Christians. > [@Stonebow](#): > > That’s not much comfort, considering that, in the US at least, the other side owns the term Christian. Take it back from them. Memetic combat is a bitch. > [@Stonebow](#): > > While i agree that the decentralized nature of the religion makes it difficult to generalize with any accuracy, it is impossible to ignore the political implications of the ownership of the term by some very bad people. Emphasis on **some very bad people**. Those specific people who misuse Christianity and/or use it towards theocratic goals, they’re bad. But there are specific people in space/time, and the problem is not that they’re Christians, but assholes. > [@Stonebow](#): > > So, what do we do? Do those Christians that don’t feel they are represented in public dialog just go along to avoid schism? Or do they fight? Or do they start to call themselves something different? Truth be told, it’s your house (If you’re a Christian) and your job to put it in order. I can’t really suggest anything, because it’s not my place to. If someone as a Christian feels that the public presentation of their religion is somehow wrong, then I’d wager they should deal with it somehow. But that’s my opinion, and they can do whatever they want. > [@Stonebow](#): > > And how are those of us that feel disenfranchised due to their actions to respond? However you feel like within the limits of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/285 "2005-03-10T22:32:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The Christians who don’t try to rule your life, well, they don’t fit into your generalization. I think they’re the silent majority, … And the opposite would be the vocal minority, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/286 "2005-03-10T22:33:41Z")
Yes, so? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/287 "2005-03-10T22:38:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [quote=Homebrew[/quote > must ask why you consider the Right Wing the vocal minority FinnAgain? Cite for me saying any such thing? [/quote] You asked, so I provided. Or are you now suggesting that the Right Wing aren’t the ones trying to rule our lives? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/288 "2005-03-10T22:48:45Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > You asked, so I provided. Or are you now suggesting that the Right Wing aren’t the ones trying to rule our lives? > [@Homebrew](#): > > > [@FinnAgain](#): > > > > The Christians who don’t try to rule your life, well, they don’t fit into your generalization. I think they’re the silent majority, … > > must ask why you consider the Right Wing the vocal minority FinnAgain? As should be obious, not everybody on the Right Wing (whatever exactly that is) does not want to turn the country into a Christian Theocracy. As a result, there are right wing Christians who do not fit into your model. There are also right wing non-Christians who do not fit into your model. As such, we cannot discuss the entire ‘Right Wing’ of the nation as if they’re one solid ‘group’. So, of course that’s what I’m saying. The ‘Right Wing’ is not trying to rule our lives, some people in it, especially theocratic Christians, are. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/289 "2005-03-10T23:10:59Z")
Ugh, what a long day. I see that this thread has veered once again, but I’d like to add two things regarding earlier discussions: **gobear** , I don’t really expect you to respond to my post in re: your “negative generalizations”. I have a feeling you probably agree that at least a few of them were over the top. But let me add this: I too have said some pretty stupid and nasty things in this thread; I’m more than happy to admit my complicity in fueling the flames. And I apologize for any and all instances where I attacked you maliciously. I still think you’re wrong and a hypocrite, but I certainly could have expressed that in a kinder way. Secondly, this quote from you: > [@gobear](#): > > There are loving people who call themselves Christians. I’ve said so from the beginning. What I’ve also said is that love or virtue are not required from a Christian, merely assent to doctrine. As long as you say, “I believe,” you’re in. Love is certainly encouraged, but it’s not, As far as i know, mandatory to be a fullfledged Christian. > > Clearly, many Christians love and are virtuous, but the various denominations do not mention virtue as a requirement of faith, merely obedience and assent. It’s great if you’re a good person, but you don;t have to be to be a Christian. I posted the first line of Matthew 25: 31-46 earlier, but I’d like to put the entire passage here. I think it is probably one of the clearest passage describing the requirement for virtue in Christianity. > [@](#): > > 31 > When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, > 32 > and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. > 33 > He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. > 34 > Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. > 35 > For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, > 36 > naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ > 37 > Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? > 38 > When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? > 39 > When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ > 40 > And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ > 41 > 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. > 42 > For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, > 43 > a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ > 44 > 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ > 45 > He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ > 46 > And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/290 "2005-03-11T01:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > The ‘Right Wing’ is not trying to rule our lives, some people in it, especially theocratic Christians, are. What’s the opposite of the No True Scotsman? Because apparently you define all groups so broadly they have no meaning. If they’re not trying to rule our lives then how is that the several states passed anti-same-sex marriage amendments by overwhelming majorities? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/291 "2005-03-11T01:52:30Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > What’s the opposite of the No True Scotsman? The “True Scotsman,” of course. 😉 And how is “theocratic Christian” a term with no meaning? I think it’s a very apt description of Ashcroft and other such assholes. It clearly differentiates people who think their flavor of Christianity should be enshrined in the law, and the other 2 billion Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/292 "2005-03-11T02:00:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Truth be told, it’s your house (If you’re a Christian) and your job to put it in order. I can’t really suggest anything, because it’s not my place to. Sorry, chief, you’ve got the wrong guy. Like many Catholics, I’m now an atheist. But even though I’ve severed my ties to Christianity, I’d not say it’s not my place to comment on internal issues because they do effect me as a member of society. If all of this strife were kept in church, we’d not be having this discussion- but it spill over and poisons our civil dialog. I have one group over here trying to run my life under the guise of Christianity…and there are, suspiciously, very few public voices proclaiming otherwise, and those that are are fairly anemic. So what am I to think? Bear in mind, I’m not talking about specific people- but as a political force/movement/whatever, Christianity is pretty much what \*\*gobear \*\* has claimed it to be. But I’d love to be proved wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/293 "2005-03-11T02:24:50Z")
My two cents… I may have already said this, but if so I’ll say it again. When I talk about Christianity with a capitol C, I talk about the conservative Christian culture. Christians with a capitol C refers not to followers of Christ, but people who are part of the culture. Lowercase c christian is someone who follows Christ. Obviously, most Christians are christians, but the uppercase C would mean I’m talking about the cultural aspect. The problem is that it wouldn’t really be practical for widespread use because it would be too confusing for people who don’t pick up on why the first letter is sometimes uppercase and sometimes lowercase, whereas if it’s just me using it the worst that would happen is people would think “That guy is weird” and ignore me. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/294 "2005-03-11T02:46:01Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > When I talk about Christianity with a capitol C, I talk about the conservative Christian culture. Christians with a capitol C refers not to followers of Christ, but people who are part of the culture. Lowercase c christian is someone who follows Christ. How’s about you just say “conservative Christian” when talking about conservative Christians? Or better yet, “fascist Christians”? Or how about “fascists who use religion as a guise”? Or even “assholes”? Then the rest of the world will know who you’re talking about and will be less likely to be offended. Unless they’re assholes, but then that’s the point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/295 "2005-03-11T03:32:00Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > What’s the opposite of the No True Scotsman? Because apparently you define all groups so broadly they have no meaning. If by ‘have no meaning’ you mean that I define groups in such a way as members aren’t interchangable, then yes. > [@Homebrew](#): > > If they’re not trying to rule our lives then how is that the several states passed anti-same-sex marriage amendments by overwhelming majorities? That was about what marriage is, and is not. Talk to me when they’re trying to manadate a state religion, as some of 'em are. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/296 "2005-03-11T03:36:11Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > Sorry, chief, you’ve got the wrong guy. Figured that was a possibility, so I included the qualifier. > [@Stonebow](#): > > Like many Catholics, I’m now an atheist. But even though I’ve severed my ties to Christianity, I’d not say it’s not my place to comment on internal issues because they do effect me as a member of society. I disagree, the actions of vocal members affect you because they try to impose their views on you. But the issue I was talking about, perception of Christianity as a whole, that really doesn’t effect you. > [@Stonebow](#): > > If all of this strife were kept in church, we’d not be having this discussion- but it spill over and poisons our civil dialog. What can those who keep it in church do about those who don’t? I’m not quite sure, but I feel like opposing the theocrats while letting the other Christians sort things out for themselves. > [@Stonebow](#): > > I have one group over here trying to run my life under the guise of Christianity…and there are, suspiciously, very few public voices proclaiming otherwise, and those that are are fairly anemic. So what am I to think? Exactly that. That there are people who are theocrats, and there isn’t vocal opposition. > [@Stonebow](#): > > Bear in mind, I’m not talking about specific people- but as a political force/movement/whatever, Christianity is pretty much what \*\*gobear \*\* has claimed it to be. But I’d love to be proved wrong. First, I don’t know how you can be proven wrong as you’ve already accepted that that’s what Christianity is. I’d ask you, what would constitute proof that it is not as you view it? And, there’s no point in talking about a disembodied political view, except if your’e talking theory. Actual people do actual things, and yes their motivation matters, but it’s still within the context of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/297 "2005-03-11T14:44:30Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > The “True Scotsman,” of course. 😉 > > And how is “theocratic Christian” a term with no meaning? I think it’s a very apt description of Ashcroft and other such assholes. I don’t know why you want to coin a new phrase “theocratic Christian” when the Religious Right already includes them, as well as some Jewish theocrats. The Religious Right **are** the ones who want to impose their worldview on everyone. We don’t need to narrow it down any more. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/298 "2005-03-11T15:49:38Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > What’s the opposite of the No True Scotsman? Because apparently you define all groups so broadly they have no meaning. If they’re not trying to rule our lives then how is that the several states passed anti-same-sex marriage amendments by overwhelming majorities? There is no doubt that the RR got the measures on the ballots, but what I want to know is how the hell did this get passed in places like Michigan and Oregon? Probably been debated elsewhere, but it clearly wasn’t just Christians who got this thing through, considering the “overwhelming majorities”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/299 "2005-03-12T02:25:32Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > I don’t know why you want to coin a new phrase “theocratic Christian” when the Religious Right already includes them, as well as some Jewish theocrats. The Religious Right **are** the ones who want to impose their worldview on everyone. We don’t need to narrow it down any more. Ahhhh, well the Religious Right =/= the Right Wing. Although if talking about specific people I still think it’d be better to call them theocratic Christians since as per your claims there are some theocratic Jews on the Religious Right too. I’d wager that the theocratic Jews don’t have many positions in common with theocratic Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/300 "2005-03-12T19:09:27Z")
On some reflection it seems that y’all have spent six pages arguing over a lack of qualifiers like **some, many** or **most**. I’d be willing to concede that we could be a little more specific, if you could acknowledge that the “theocratic Christians” are the ones controling the public political face of Christianity. Now the question is, are you willing to allow that to continue to be the case or are you going to do something about it? (Ironically, fundamentalists were once seperatists and eschewed political activity.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=16)