# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/41 "2005-03-08T01:35:19Z")
Christians like **duffer** and **FinnAgain** are far less enticing company in my book than good, kind people like **Polycarp**. Luckily, he’s who I think of, and people like him, when I think “Christian.” To take a pathetic stab at the theology of this thread, it seems like one has to relinquish power in order to express love. It’s far easier to accept and respect a Christian who exhibits the virtues of patience and tolerance, and faith that means being humble in the presence of something greater, than it is to face a Christian that says, “You’re unsaved? Fuck you.” It’s also more tolerable, I assume, to deal with an atheist who’s thoughtful and humble as well, rather than one who says, “I don’t need a crutch or threats of damnation to do good acts, you pathetic loser.” _I am not attributing this attitude to gobear. I’m just presenting the parallel_. Too bad everyone’s morally superior in their hatred. Where was that part of the Bible or Bertrand Russell, again? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/42 "2005-03-08T01:46:50Z")
Everyone is going to heaven. One must remember their are levels in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/43 "2005-03-08T02:01:06Z")
So, **Gobear** , are you going to retract your misinformed assertion that Catholics do not believe that faith without works is dead? It’s not only such common knowledge that several have corrected you already, but it was one of the original core differences between Cathlicism and Protestantism. I can’t speak for all Protestant sects, but you are wrong about Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/44 "2005-03-08T02:37:00Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Everyone is going to heaven. > > One must remember their are levels in heaven. With my luck, the elevator will be broken. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/45 "2005-03-08T02:44:13Z")
**Loopydude** , of course all religions are superstitious nonsense, but Xianity happens to be the one we are saddled with in this country. **Sol Grundy** , in the words of Edith Piaf, _Non, je ne regrette rien._ I ain’t apologizin’, nor am I backing down. > [@](#): > > The difference, Hamish, is that you know when to quit. You don’t feel the need to evangelize atheism at every opportunity, then tell people that they’re ignorant and need to study more when they don’t reach the same conclusions as you. Oh, and Christians _never_ evangelize? Why is it that you can spew your nonsense on TV, in politics, at public ceremonies, and attempot to force your faith on the rest of us, but let one atheist post some snark on a message board and you act as if the Bible is going to be banned. Get off the cross, honey, you’re giving Jesus a woody. **Leander** , good set of quotes, but one can also point to Acts 16: 30-31 > [@](#): > > Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Not to mention pretty much all of Romans, plus Titus 3:5 > [@](#): > > Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. **Tracy Lord** I assure you that I have neither anger nor hate in my posting. I just do not agree that your religion is kind, charitable, or loving. Nor do I think that it is true. Jesus did not rise, and you are not saved. **Ludovic** , true, that the faith vs. works controversy helped cause the Reformation, but the Church (in which I was raised, BTW, and there is nothing you have to teach me about its doctrine) maintains that salvation comes through Jesus alone. The sacraments are a means by which grace is confered upon the believer, but one cannot earn salvation. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: > [@](#): > > 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. > 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. For all that you folks say that I make assertions, I 've got cites to back up my posts. Only **Leander** has bothered to cite Scripture to support his claims, for which I salute him. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/46 "2005-03-08T03:02:12Z")
“Now abideth faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.” (I Corinthians 13th chapter is all about the value of love.) Another part of the Scripture talks about the “fruits of the spirit” – virtues that one should develop as a Christian. **Gobear** , I am not blind to the damage that can be done by some Christians in the name of Christianity. The Christians who are judgmental and unloving in their attitudes and actions toward homosexuals are often the most vocal by nature; they think it’s their duty. That doesn’t mean that they are even a majority of Christians. (I don’t know.) _Any_ label or steretyping or misinformation that unjustly stirs up malice and resentment is part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/47 "2005-03-08T03:08:01Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Gobear** , I am not blind to the damage that can be done by some Christians in the name of Christianity. The Christians who are judgmental and unloving in their attitudes and actions toward homosexuals are often the most vocal by nature; they think it’s their duty. OK, that’s it, I’m going hetero just to take away that crutch as a debate tool. > [@](#): > > _Any_ label or steretyping or misinformation that unjustly stirs up malice and resentment is part of the problem. How am I stereotyping? Are you saying that we may criticize the GOP, and the Democrats, and communism, and radical Islam, but somehow Christianity is somehow above criticism? Bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/48 "2005-03-08T03:22:07Z")
**Gobear** does have a point. I really don’t like big-C Christianity (which is what I call mainstream US Christianity). The power that Christianity has has really made it corrupt. I also think that **Gobear** has an unfair amount of contempt for christians. Then again, it strikes me as unchristlike for christians to demand to be treated fairly and respectfully (PC-protection). Whenever he says something that pisses me off, I’ve learned that it’s wise to not jump the gun in attacking him. Rereading the post often shows that it’s not as bad as it at first appears. And is he really is speaking out of hatred, well, that hurts him more than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/49 "2005-03-08T03:38:13Z")
> [@leander](#): > > But to group and label all Christians as **gobear** did (and does, often) is just as stupid as when bible-thumpers label all homosexuals as deviant, evil, etc. In fact, the apparent bigotry is ironically similar. Ironically similar in that one group A fervently disagrees with group B’s beliefs yet group B disagrees with group A’s very existence? Hating someone for what they say or do seems different brand of stupid than hating someone for who they are. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/50 "2005-03-08T03:49:29Z")
From four and a half years ago. A thread started by a poster then known as “ **goboy** ”. Maybe **gobear** can learn something from this. [Rude to the Religious](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=36927) > [@gobear](#): > > 09-01-2000, 10:30 AM > I wish to apologize for the mean and petty tone of my posts over the past several days. I’ll explain. > > There have been a whole passel of threads devoted to evangelizing for Jesus lately. The responses have varied from 100 percent agreement, respectful tolerance, sarcasm, > and then the rudeness of which I am guilty. > > I find religion fascinating and I am always interested in disicussion of comparative theology:why do Hindus believe in reincarnation, how do the Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic rites differ, what do the LDS believe about the nature of Jesus, and so on. I am respectful of other folks’ differing beliefs. > > What gets me riled is evangelists, folks who preach and don’t listen, folks who think that they alone hear the voice of God and therefore, anyone who disagrees must be wrong. Evangelists cannot see that other folks might have opinions that may be different from their own but are valid, nevertheless. They don’t have to be Christians; pagans and Muslims have done this, too. As a gay man, especially, I get enraged when a Christian tells me I have no right to live and love. > > There is a huge gulf between a mutually respectful examination of each other’s beliefs and saying there is only one way to God and any who disagree are mistaken or evil. A post which begins, “I’m right and there is no way you can ever have any basis for disagreeing because I have absolute truth on my side” is a real non-starter. Where do you go with a conversation that starts like this? > > Not all Christians are like this. I have deep respect for the intelligent, thoughtful Christians on this board. If all Christians behaved as Polycarp does, they could probably get me back in the fold. > > I don’t like coming off as shrill and intolerant. However, if a Christian says, “I am Lazarus, come to tell you all, I shall tell you all”, he must expect to be flamed. > > I apologize to FoG, Wildest Bill, and on unrelated matters, Matt\_Mcl, Scylla, Pldennison, and Oldscratch. > > I put this in the Pit because it could be kindling for flames. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/51 "2005-03-08T03:50:11Z")
I appreciate the kind words, but I would still like to address two issues: 1. _“Christians do not believe in love…”_ I think it’s hard to argue, despite what some of the more vocal assholes out there are doing and saying, that one of the central teachings of Christianity is love. It may not _seem_ that way sometimes, what with all the bullshit that takes place in and out of the church by supposed followers, but it’s clear that the Bible places love and charity front and center (though perhaps slightly behind “faith” itself). Disagree? 1. _“The Bible teaches that one is saved by faith, not by one’s own efforts.”_ This one’s easy to me, though much more difficult to discern clearly from Scripture. IMHO, change the statement to _“The Bible teaches that one is saved by faith, **as well as** by one’s own efforts”_ and you’ve got it. That being said, there is obviously room for debate about this, as both you and I have shown with our cites. And I think it’s fine to agree to disagree…but at least _allow for the possibility_ that others (such as myself) have a different and worthwhile opinion and can support that view with Scripture. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/52 "2005-03-08T03:58:09Z")
I think \*\*Gobear[/b[ is trying to make a point about basic Christian dogma - a point that is valid and is genuinely problematic - and his point is being misunderstood as a comment on the individual moral failings of all Christians. Of course, his repeated references to what “Christians believe” has not done anything to defuse the situation. Still, there is something to what he says. Traditional Christian soteriology states that love and compassion without a specific faith in Christ as Saviour are insufficient to attain salvation. Many Christians may protest that you have to be loving too, but that is at least, arguable, and I think beside the point as well. Unless it can be said that specific belief is irrelevant to salvation and that being a loving person is good enough (and there are Christians who say exactly this… **Liberal** comes to mind) then there is a real ethical problem with the theology. A Salvation theology which makes no room for loving caring heathens cannot be said to truly value human compassion above all. This has always been my biggest problem with Christianity - the idea that humans need an intermediary to save them, that they must believe in this intermediary without proof, and that being a good person isn’t good enough - strikes me as fundamentally unsound and amoral. There are plenty of individual Christians who recognize this problem and find theological /philosophical methods of resolving it. It is incorrect to say that “Christians don’t believe in love” (and I think Gobear is far too intelligent, articulate and precise as a writer for that phrase not to have been intentionally provocative) but it is not incorrect to say that an honest examination of core Christian doctrine shows that it is fundamentally a religion of specific belief and worship, and that values of human love and compassion _without that specific belief and worship_ are often (and historically, almost universally) held out as being insufficient, irrelevant or even impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/53 "2005-03-08T04:01:52Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I appreciate the kind words, but I would still like to address two issues: > > 1. _“Christians do not believe in love…”_ > > I think it’s hard to argue, despite what some of the more vocal assholes out there are doing and saying, that one of the central teachings of Christianity is love. It may not _seem_ that way sometimes, what with all the bullshit that takes place in and out of the church by supposed followers, but it’s clear that the Bible places love and charity front and center (though perhaps slightly behind “faith” itself). > > Disagree? > > 1. _“The Bible teaches that one is saved by faith, not by one’s own efforts.”_ > > This one’s easy to me, though much more difficult to discern clearly from Scripture. IMHO, change the statement to _“The Bible teaches that one is saved by faith, **as well as** by one’s own efforts”_ and you’ve got it. > > That being said, there is obviously room for debate about this, as both you and I have shown with our cites. And I think it’s fine to agree to disagree…but at least _allow for the possibility_ that others (such as myself) have a different and worthwhile opinion and can support that view with Scripture. > > Fair enough? I would argue that as long as specific faith is required _at all_ (especially without proof) then no salvation theology is morally defensible. It is my contention that specific belief is an unreasonable and amoral condition for salvation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/54 "2005-03-08T04:09:15Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Christians like **duffer** and **FinnAgain** are far less enticing company in my book than good, kind people like **Polycarp**. That’s got to be one of the oddest things I’ve ever read. My little old yiddish gramma would’ve probably been quite surprised to learn that I’m a Christian. Fuck, **I’m** quite surprised to learn that I’m a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/55 "2005-03-08T04:20:49Z")
God works in the most mysterious ways, you know, **Finn**. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/56 "2005-03-08T04:30:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I would argue that as long as specific faith is required _at all_ (especially without proof) then no salvation theology is morally defensible. It is my contention that specific belief is an unreasonable and amoral condition for salvation. _You gotta have faith, ba-by…_ Seriously, every religion must have faith as a central tenet otherwise the whole damn thing falls apart. That seems rather obvious to me. Now you can certainly argue that it is an “amoral condition”, but I don’t think you’ll get very far with anyone who believes in any theology whatsoever. That being said, it’s certainly your right to feel that way, and I personally don’t think any more or less of you because of it. And I would hope that you would extend me the same courtesy in re: my views. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/57 "2005-03-08T04:38:50Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > How am I stereotyping? Are you saying that we may criticize the GOP, and the Democrats, and communism, and radical Islam, but somehow Christianity is somehow above criticism? Bollocks. Bollocks? Is that really your argument? Criticize any political party, system or belief you want. You know you won’t be the first to do so for whatever sub-sect you choose. Further, you know you’ll have plenty of people either backing you up or arguing countering points. But when you come along and say and then follow it up with multiple assertions that you stand behind it as fact, well, I thought you’d see where that might rub a person or 3 billion the wrong way. See, Christ never taught this. What He taught is what you yourself want added to your list of rights. Acceptance, tolerence, love of each other. By definition, any follower of Christ is a Christian. (But you knew that, right?) So saying that Christians reject love and just want power is to say Christ Himself wanted the same. Most of us Christians, and pretty much all of us Catholics, are embarrassed by the fire-and-brimstone rhetoric seen on the news and in national publications. For instance, homosexuality in the Catholic Church isn’t a sin. It’s taught that _acting_ upon it is. Though forgiveness can be obtained even if you gang-bang the college football team. _Being_ gay, though, isn’t an express ticket to Hades. This may not be acceptable to a person, and if so they can find another way to worship the Lord. There are many branches of Christianity. Hey, if you join the right denomination you could even become a Bishop. [sub]_cough_Vermont_cough_They obviously have hate in their hearts_cough_[/sub] Over the past few months I’ve read many and posted to a few of your threads. In a number of them I’ve seen you as reasoned and even said I’d vote for you if I was in your district based on what you’ve said. Regrettably I have to retract those now that I know how much you hate me. I wonder what kind of shitstorm would be created if I stated, all-encompassing, something about gays in general? OK, I don’t wonder. We all know what would happen. Yet, it’s OK to do so when it comes to people’s deeply held beliefs. I challenge you to call every lawmaker you support whom has stated a belief in Christianity and tell them you no longer want their support as a gay man. Let’s be honest, they don’t believe in your idea of the faith, right? One more thing. Why did you qualify “radical Islam”? Why not just Islam? You couldn’t bring yourself to accord the same to “radical Christianity”? Er, I forgot. Us Christians are inherently evil. We’re all the same. By that reasoning, how about I form my entire view of gays based on the fact they obviously hate Christians. That should justify growing hatred, right? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/58 "2005-03-08T04:42:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s got to be one of the oddest things I’ve ever read. > My little old yiddish gramma would’ve probably been quite surprised to learn that I’m a Christian. Fuck, **I’m** quite surprised to learn that I’m a Christian. _snerk_ I’m surprised we were lumped together in comparison to someone else. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/59 "2005-03-08T05:03:22Z")
> [@leander](#): > > _You gotta have faith, ba-by…_ > > Seriously, every religion must have faith as a central tenet otherwise the whole damn thing falls apart. That seems rather obvious to me. Now you can certainly argue that it is an “amoral condition”, but I don’t think you’ll get very far with anyone who believes in any theology whatsoever. To be nitpicky, Christianity is one of the only major religions where specific faith is a _requirement_. In most other religions (including Judaism) being a good person is sufficient in itself. And of course there are some religious traditions with no theistic beliefs at all. I say I think it’s an “amoral condition” because I believe it turns salvation into a guessing game. The only way to be saved is to correctly guess - without any proof - which belief out of thousands is the correct one. I have said before on this board that I think it’s akin to God demanding to know what number he’s thinking of between one and infinity (because there are an infinite number of possible beliefs). > [@](#): > > That being said, it’s certainly your right to feel that way, and I personally don’t think any more or less of you because of it. And I would hope that you would extend me the same courtesy in re: my views. Of course. Some of my best friends are Christians. My wife is a Christian. I don’t believe that most Christians really go around thinking that they’re going to Heaven and everyone else is headed for the burny place (though some do, of course). I just think it’s mostly an unexamined or outright ignored facet of an inherited tradition that also has much to recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/60 "2005-03-08T05:21:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To be nitpicky, Christianity is one of the only major religions where specific faith is a _requirement_. To be even more nitpicky (:)), Judaism and Islam both require specific faith. For Judaism, in Rambam’s 13 Principles, you’ve got: - Belief that God exists, is unique, and is eternal - Belief that Moses’ prophecy is superior to all other prophecy - Belief that the Torah is divine and true - Belief that God will reward the devout and punish the wicked. For Islam, the first of the Five Pillars is that there is no god but Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=4)