# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/61 "2005-03-08T05:27:08Z")
Um, those seem to be _a member of that religion_, not requirements _not to burn in Hell_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/62 "2005-03-08T05:29:24Z")
Read “Those seem to be requirements to be a member…” Of course, as I understand it, Judaism doesn’t actually have much in the way of salvation to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/63 "2005-03-08T05:30:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Ludovic, true, that the faith vs. works controversy helped cause the Reformation, but the Church (in which I was raised, BTW, and there is nothing you have to teach me about its doctrine) maintains that salvation comes through Jesus alone. The sacraments are a means by which grace is confered upon the believer, but one cannot earn salvation. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: > > > [@](#): > > > > 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. > > 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. > > For all that you folks say that I make assertions, I 've got cites to back up my posts. I don’t think that cite particularly backs up your assertion that Catholics believe you are saved by faith alone. However, I grant you that if we were to duel with Bible quotes from the New Testament, which I am not particularly good at nor wont to do now, it would come down pretty much in favor of faith alone. But when have Christian sects limited themselves to the Bible? 😃 Faith, to be certain, is more important than works IME as one with exposure to Catholic sermons, and the idea of deathbed salvation is certainly not ruled out, because as it’s said, no one knows who is really going to Heaven. And you just don’t hear the heavy emphasis on sudden conversion and deathbed revelations that pervades the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. I dispute your point about the whole of Christianity relying on a Get Out of Hell Free card to mask a life of otherwise unadulterated evil. It’s been awhile since my Catechism but is it not true that, while again no one knows what is required to attain salvation, in order to get in good standing with the offical doctrine of the Church one must not only repent but also attempt to make good the sin? Whereas some persuasions, your sin is washed away with repentance. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/64 "2005-03-08T05:31:31Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > **Sol Grundy** , in the words of Edith Piaf, _Non, je ne regrette rien._ I ain’t apologizin’, nor am I backing down. No shit! Wasn’t that pretty much the entire point of my post to **leander**? If you ever backed down, or in fact showed any signs whatsoever that you actually listened to people instead of asserting your own position and calling people who don’t agree with you stupid, then you wouldn’t keep getting drawn into the same argument over and over again. > [@gobear](#): > > Oh, and Christians _never_ evangelize? Why is it that you can spew your nonsense on TV, in politics, at public ceremonies, and attempt to force your faith on the rest of us, but let one atheist post some snark on a message board and you act as if the Bible is going to be banned. Get off the cross, honey, you’re giving Jesus a woody. Please. That’s some weak-ass shit, even for you. “They started it! You people do it all the time! I was just talkin’ is all; it didn’t mean nothing! I’ve got my rights!” You’re an adult, **gobear**. Fucking act like one, and treat us like adults, too. That crap may work fine against simple-minded fundamentalists who come in trying to get creationism taught as science or condemn “alternative lifestyles,” but you know damn well you’re talking to intelligent people who’ve put thought into their beliefs. And you know damn well that I don’t go around forcing my faith on anyone. The first time I got pulled into that nonsense, I just went away thinking that it was all just sputtering vitriol from someone with a chip on his shoulder about Christianity, so I let it lie. Now, after seeing you get pulled into the same ego-masturbation disguised as a theological debate another time, I think you’re deliberately Christian-baiting. You’ve been grinding that axe for so long, you’ve worn it down to nothing. And _every single time_ you get called on it, you respond by saying that it’s entitled because of all the persecution you’ve suffered from Christians. And you’re calling _me_ a martyr? Whenever you go quoting your mis-interpreted scripture and “saluting” others who quote it back at you, I’m reminded of the dialogue in _A Fish Called Wanda_: “Apes don’t read philosophy.” “Yes they do, Otto, they just don’t understand it.” **Proverbs 14:15** : The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. (Blind adherence to words without understanding the _meaning_ of those words is foolish.) **Luke 6:31** : And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (The Golden Rule. Or, if it bothers you so much to hear Christians evangelize at any possible opportunity, and it’s a case of their “forcing their faith on you,” why is it acceptable for you to evangelize your atheism?) **Proverbs 14:16** : A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. (Fools rage on and never learn from their mistakes.) **1 Corinthians 8:1-2** : Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. (You’re not as smart as you think you are. Benevolence and love towards other people make you a much stronger person than any knowledge you claim to have.) **Proverbs 17:28** : Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. (We heard you the first thousand times you made some blatantly antagonistic comment about Christianity and got called on it.) I do find it somewhat ironic that in my church, the verses that you quote were used to admonish those who do pretty much exactly what you’re doing – quoting Bible scripture and claiming that that means you “get it.” Except when I heard them, they were directed at those who go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, can recite scripture back to front, but still don’t accept the teachings of Christ in their hearts. But if you want to get into the whole so-called “debate” about whether virtue matters for salvation, the [Skeptic’s Annotated Bible](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html) does a much better job of collecting the contradictory verses that you all seem to love. Quoting Scripture is a tool of the overly pedantic, or the weak-minded who can’t think for themselves. The only need to quote from it is if it makes a point really well, which it seldom does, because either the language is so archaic as to be clumsy, or there’s another passage which can be interpreted to be directly contradictory to the one you’re trying to make. All I know is that I’m pretty damn tired of people – both Christian and atheist – telling me that their interpretation is the _right_ one and I’m either going to hell or I’m self-deluded and stupid, or both. There are plenty of us who have little difficulty reconciling religious belief with science, with homosexuality (I said it about _me_, **gobear** , so don’t get all uptight), or with just plain not being a jerk. So many of us, in fact, that I wish people would just fucking show some _sense_ instead of trying to impose their simple-minded worldviews on everyone else. > [@gobear](#): > > OK, that’s it, I’m going hetero just to take away that crutch as a debate tool. Yeah, we’ve heard that complaint before, too. Dude, maybe you should try branching out a little. Like, don’t tell everyone how much gay sex you had with your boyfriend last weekend. And don’t end flamewars by offering people blowjobs, even if it’s meant cordially. There are a lot of people on the SDMB, and we don’t have a lot to go on here. “The gay guy who hates Christians” doesn’t do a whole lot to set you apart. **matt\_mcl** has the whole Canadian thing going on, **spectrum** ’s the screaming militant one, and **Otto** ’s working on the poker connection. Personally, I haven’t decided whether to work the comic books & videogame angle, or go more for the Bible-Thumping Homo thing. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/65 "2005-03-08T05:43:42Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Like, don’t tell everyone how much gay sex you had with your boyfriend last weekend. Or if you do, at least upload the videos. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/66 "2005-03-08T05:45:11Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Personally, I haven’t decided whether to work the comic books & videogame angle, or go more for the Bible-Thumping Homo thing. [sub]I can’t believe SolfreakingGrundy elicited this response based on the perceived animosity I thought he had for me, or has. Whatever.[/sub] Go for the straight-man-that-had-even-a-moment-of-doubt-if-he-is-honest vote. You’ll be running the world in about, oh, a week. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/67 "2005-03-08T06:02:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To be nitpicky, Christianity is one of the only major religions where specific faith is a _requirement_. In most other religions (including Judaism) being a good person is sufficient in itself. And of course there are some religious traditions with no theistic beliefs at all. > > I say I think it’s an “amoral condition” because I believe it turns salvation into a guessing game. The only way to be saved is to correctly guess - without any proof - which belief out of thousands is the correct one. I have said before on this board that I think it’s akin to God demanding to know what number he’s thinking of between one and infinity (because there are an infinite number of possible beliefs). > > Of course. Some of my best friends are Christians. My wife is a Christian. I don’t believe that most Christians really go around thinking that they’re going to Heaven and everyone else is headed for the burny place (though some do, of course). I just think it’s mostly an unexamined or outright ignored facet of an inherited tradition that also has much to recommend it. Of course, with salvation from faith theologies, it’s possible that God reveals himself after you die and then you get the choice. I think fundies don’t want to say that though, because they don’t know for sure and would rather err on the side of caution than have people end up in hell. I think there are a lot of fundies who could be more flexible in their beliefs, but stick to what they know because they don’t want to lead others astray. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/68 "2005-03-08T06:08:37Z")
And I apparently missed **gobear** ’s “retract my statement” post from the earlier thread, even though it was _directly quoted in the OP of this one_. So I retract my bitching at him for never backing down and bringing it up where it’s inappropriate. I still think he’d be better off avoiding the hassle altogether, but. Eh. To each his own. > [@duffer](#): > > I can’t believe SolfreakingGrundy elicited this response based on the perceived animosity I thought he had for me, or has. Whatever. > > Go for the straight-man-that-had-even-a-moment-of-doubt-if-he-is-honest vote. You’ll be running the world in about, oh, a week. I really, sincerely don’t want to derail a thread that’s already making grinding noises and sending sparks flying all over the Pit, and I don’t want to make this “ALL ABOUT ME,” but… I can’t parse that. As in, I can’t tell what it means, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/69 "2005-03-08T06:08:58Z")
> [@Tracy Lord](#): > > To be even more nitpicky (:)), Judaism and Islam both require specific faith. > > For Judaism, in Rambam’s 13 Principles, you’ve got: > > - Belief that God exists, is unique, and is eternal > - Belief that Moses’ prophecy is superior to all other prophecy > - Belief that the Torah is divine and true > - Belief that God will reward the devout and punish the wicked. > > For Islam, the first of the Five Pillars is that there is no god but Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet. These are requirements to be Jewish or Muslim. They are not requirements to go to Heaven. That’s the difference. Most other religions do not say that you have to be a member of that religion to go to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/70 "2005-03-08T06:11:34Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > I really, sincerely don’t want to derail a thread that’s already making grinding noises and sending sparks flying all over the Pit, and I don’t want to make this “ALL ABOUT ME,” but… I can’t parse that. As in, I can’t tell what it means, at all. It’s a bit cryptic to me, too, but I think he’s telling you to go into politics. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/71 "2005-03-08T06:16:23Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > Of course, with salvation from faith theologies, it’s possible that God reveals himself after you die and then you get the choice. I think fundies don’t want to say that though, because they don’t know for sure and would rather err on the side of caution than have people end up in hell. I think there are a lot of fundies who could be more flexible in their beliefs, but stick to what they know because they don’t want to lead others astray. But there _is_ no side of caution. Pascal’s Wager is a false dichotomy. There is no safe choice. There are infinite choices which all have equal risk. God might hate Christianity and love tree worshippers. In that case, Christian fundamentalists would be leading people astray. There is no way to know. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/72 "2005-03-08T06:32:42Z")
For an athiest/agnostic’s perspective, I agree with you. Some christians, however, would feel that being cautious would go with what they’ve always been taught and is what mainstream christian culture believes. For them, the stricter interpretation is safer. They’d be afraid to tell you that you don’t have to believe in Jesus before you die, because they don’t know for sure. From their point of view, saying that you have to believe in Jesus before you die is playing it safe because it’s not easy to find places that directly contradict it in the bible and that’s what their pastors and James Dobson and their radio stations tell them. You might not know this, but there is a lot of comfort in being a fundamentalist christian. You have churches and the christian media going along with you, you have tons and tons of books, and you really feel that you are all right with God. I’ve grown up in that culture, and am now just starting to become a more liberal christian. It’s not an easy change to make, and all of the sudden it isn’t so easy. I can’t even read the bible anymore because it’s too confusing. First I have to read this other book called “How To Read The Bible For All Its Worth” before I even try. My point is that it’s hard for christians to step outside their comfort zones, and that’s why some have such strict theological beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/73 "2005-03-08T06:57:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > These are requirements to be Jewish or Muslim. They are not requirements to go to Heaven. That’s the difference. Most other religions do not say that you have to be a member of that religion to go to Heaven. Sorry, I completely missed your point. _That_ should have been rather obvious _to me_! :smack: You are correct, of course. In terms of salvation, Christianity is somewhat unique in regards to faith. I was thinking you were talking of religions in general terms. So your point about it being an “amoral condition” makes far greater sense. Personally, I don’t see it as a requirement – that is, I don’t think salvation is exclusive to Christians. But then, I’m clearly not a very good one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/74 "2005-03-08T07:14:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > These are requirements to be Jewish or Muslim. They are not requirements to go to Heaven. That’s the difference. Most other religions do not say that you have to be a member of that religion to go to Heaven. Ah, I misunderstood your unqualified use of the word “requirement.” Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/75 "2005-03-08T08:39:44Z")
**Gobear** , I am greatly saddened to know that I cannot believe in love. I want to love, although I know my spirit fall short of the example I have chosen, in love. I try, when I know that I have failed to make amends. How can I do that, with you? What act of mine could atone for the absence of love you see in me? For I am a Christian, and if Christians believe only in power, without virtue, then I too must be spewing my hatred over you. I am sorry. What path would you have me take? If I have tried to force my faith down your throat, it was unintended. I don’t even remember offering you my faith at all. I believe that faith is important, in fact one of the three things my Lord says endure. But, even He, in whom I am to have faith set it below love, which He called the greatest of all things. It is only that one thing I wish to offer. I don’t do dueling verses. I would recommend, rather that you not read the bible at all, anymore. It seems to be quite discomforting to you. It seems to make you angry, and to make you believe that I hate you. I do not. I think that you know some people do, and of those, some are Christians. I don’t follow Christians. I don’t ask you to follow me. I ask only that you tell me what you want from me. Not me, in a general sense, but me personally. What amends would you have for the absence of love you have perceived in me? For whether you believe it or not, the perception you have that I do not believe in love distresses me, and is in my mind a reflection of a sin on my part. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/76 "2005-03-08T08:42:14Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > It’s a bit cryptic to me, too, but I think he’s telling you to go into politics. Yeah, but not in a nice way, you know? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/77 "2005-03-08T12:20:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Please. That’s some weak-ass shit, even for you. “They started it! You people do it all the time! I was just talkin’ is all; it didn’t mean nothing! I’ve got my rights!” You’re an adult, gobear. Fucking act like one, and treat us like adults, too. That crap may work fine against simple-minded fundamentalists who come in trying to get creationism taught as science or condemn “alternative lifestyles,” but you know damn well you’re talking to intelligent people who’ve put thought into their beliefs. And you know damn well that I don’t go around forcing my faith on anyone. > > The first time I got pulled into that nonsense, I just went away thinking that it was all just sputtering vitriol from someone with a chip on his shoulder about Christianity, so I let it lie. Now, after seeing you get pulled into the same ego-masturbation disguised as a theological debate another time, I think you’re deliberately Christian-baiting. You’ve been grinding that axe for so long, you’ve worn it down to nothing. And every single time you get called on it, you respond by saying that it’s entitled because of all the persecution you’ve suffered from Christians. And you’re calling me a martyr? Learn to read, son. I’ll say it again for you: > [@](#): > > Oh, and Christians never evangelize? Why is it that you can spew your nonsense on TV, in politics, at public ceremonies, and attempt to force your faith on the rest of us, but let one atheist post some snark on a message board and you act as if the Bible is going to be banned. Christians are on TV, in politics, at public ceremonies, atheists are not. It’s not about persecution,but about _access_. I’ll say it one more time because you really seem not to get this point. Christians get far, far more access to communicate their beliefs than do secular atheists, but let one obstreperous atheist talk shit about the dominant religion, you act persecuted, as if the lions are at the door. > [@](#): > > Quoting Scripture is a tool of the overly pedantic, or the weak-minded who can’t think for themselves. The only need to quote from it is if it makes a point really well, which it seldom does, because either the language is so archaic as to be clumsy, or there’s another passage which can be interpreted to be directly contradictory to the one you’re trying to make. Quoting Scripture is citing authority for one’s statements. I have no idea what church you attend, but it can’t be much if a Christian church if it doesn’t recognize the primacy of the Bible and its teachings. As for the contradictory nature of the beast, hey, mayvbe you’ll wake up and realize that while the Bible is the authority for debate on Christian doctrine, it’s just a book, after all. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/78 "2005-03-08T12:39:00Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > **Gobear** , > > I am greatly saddened to know that I cannot believe in love. I want to love, although I know my spirit fall short of the example I have chosen, in love. I try, when I know that I have failed to make amends. > > How can I do that, with you? What act of mine could atone for the absence of love you see in me? For I am a Christian, and if Christians believe only in power, without virtue, then I too must be spewing my hatred over you. I am sorry. What path would you have me take? Stop trying the “but I’m nice,” argument. You **are** nice, but that is no reply to the problems I have with the Christian religion. There are nice Marxists, but their politics are still loathsome; there are nice Republicans, but they still follow a lying warmonger. I’m sure there are members of al Qaeda who are probably swell fellas, but I’m still not going to send them any donations based on niceness. One thing that struck me among the many disappointed applicants for _American Idol_ was the common reply when the judges rejected them, “But I’m a good person!” So? That has no bearing on their ability to sing. Same principle here. Your being a decent person has no bearing on the doctrines taught by Christianity and its fan club. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/79 "2005-03-08T12:40:30Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Christians get far, far more access to communicate their beliefs than do secular atheists, but let one obstreperous atheist talk shit about the dominant religion, you act persecuted, as if the lions are at the door. When the atheists outnumber the theists, I expect you’ll see the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/80 "2005-03-08T12:56:43Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > When the atheists outnumber the theists, I expect you’ll see the reverse. And on that day, I will still disagree with them, but I’ll support their right to be heard and to be equal in our society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=5)