# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/121 "2005-03-09T00:16:09Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > \*\* By the Diogenes the Cynic, who obvisouly still hasn’t actually read anything I posted.\*\* > > What would be the point? The Bible was written by human beings, who introduced error, in a language far older than our understanding of it, and then crossed into two other languages before landing in English. I have already seen quotes which purport to ssay that. There are three responses, any of which may be valid. > > 1. The quote is in error. This is entirely possible > > 2. The quote is erroneously interpreted > > 3. The quote says what is means but was not intended as an absolute. > > Number (3) seems the most likely, actually. People say things all the time that they don’t mean under all possible circumstances or all the time. > > The point is, your incomplete understanding of my religion does not entitle you to lead my around by the nose by a quote out of context from a section of my eons-old religion. To do so is both ignorant and insulting, and demonstrates only your foolishness. > > In the future, you should probably stick to citing theological textx, which intended and prepared for scholarly debate, and use terminology much more exact that the writings of pre-Christian Jewish Rabbis. > > And of course, your inability to differentiate between Christians is your greatest weakness. You do not know the opponent you chose, and you therefore cannot argue against them. Instead, you repeatedly create fictional opponents, knock down the strawmen, and then declare that the scarecrow was your chosen foe. Once again, I am not presuming to know you what you believe, I am describing core Christian doctrine as it is. Whether you choose to believe that doctrine yourself is neither here nor there. Can you name a Christian denomination which states that works alone can get you to Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/122 "2005-03-09T00:39:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Can you name a Christian denomination which states that works alone can get you to Heaven? Unitarian Universalism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/123 "2005-03-09T00:40:22Z")
> [@Tracy Lord](#): > > Unitarian Universalism. Since when is UU Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/124 "2005-03-09T00:57:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Since when is UU Christian? They’re not strictly Christian, but there are Christian members. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/125 "2005-03-09T01:31:57Z")
What about the United Church of Christ? ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/126 "2005-03-09T01:38:40Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Meh, you call this a Pitting? > > Let me ask you a question: > > Are you saved by works or by faith? You are saved by faith _for_ good works. Good works are proof of your faith. Yet without faith, your good works mean nothing. That’s…all I really have to contribute to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/127 "2005-03-09T01:43:59Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > But . . . but, I do deny them! I deny them a lot. Right now, in fact, I find myself in a struggle. I have given in to hate. I have come to despise some people for failures as Christians. > > No, I won’t publicly forgive people for trying to blame Christ for their own hatreds, for such an expression would affirm their hatred. But I must forgive them; for my Lord does, and bids me do the same. So, it will be a matter between us, me, and the condemning Christian. And the best expression I can come up with is to ask their forgiveness for hating them in my turn. That is the point of weakness for hatred. Stop, and put it aside, and ask those you have hated for their forgiveness. They many choose not to give it. This is their choice. > > In the exact same way, I have asked **Gobear** ’s forgiveness; not as a spokesman for a greater group, but as an individual. I may aspire to emulate my Lord in this world, but I am not anointed, and do not have authority to represent Christians. I speak only as myself. > > Tris Thank you, Tris, for being the agent of conviction for me. I know you’ll understand what I mean. “Behold, I show you a better way!” indeed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/128 "2005-03-09T01:52:16Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > You are saved by faith _for_ good works. Good works are proof of your faith. Yet without faith, your good works mean nothing. > > That’s…all I really have to contribute to this thread. This is what I call an unreasonable condition. Why aren’t good works good enough? How is it reasonable to require a correct random guess in addition to being a good person? What’s wrong with just being a good person? If that’s not good enough, then God’s not good enough, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/129 "2005-03-09T02:18:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > This is what I call an unreasonable condition. Why aren’t good works good enough? How is it reasonable to require a correct random guess in addition to being a good person? > > What’s wrong with just being a good person? > > If that’s not good enough, then God’s not good enough, as far as I’m concerned. Well, Christianity is all about faith, not about guessing. Guessing is where you think something and hope it’s right. Believing is where you think something and you know it’s right, even if you haven’t actually seen it with your own eyes. There’s nothing wrong with being a good person, but with Christianity, you’re given a chance to be forgiven with your sins. If you believe you’ve been forgiven of your sins, wouldn’t you believe in the one who did that for you? It’s all very sensitive business. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/130 "2005-03-09T02:30:30Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > Well, Christianity is all about faith, not about guessing. Guessing is where you think something and hope it’s right. Believing is where you think something and you know it’s right, No, beleiving is where you believe something and _don’t_ know if it’s right. If you know it, it’s not a belief. > [@](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with being a good person, but with Christianity, you’re given a chance to be forgiven with your sins. If you believe you’ve been forgiven of your sins, wouldn’t you believe in the one who did that for you? It’s all very sensitive business. What sins? What do I have to be forgiven for? How you _know_ any of this? How is it fair to demand that anyone else believe it without proof? By the way, in Christian salvation theology, the only thing God is saving you from is God. ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/131 "2005-03-09T02:39:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …By the way, in Christian salvation theology, the only thing God is saving you from is God. Explain please? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/132 "2005-03-09T02:40:43Z")
Who created Hell and decided on the rules that make you go there or not? ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/133 "2005-03-09T03:10:44Z")
If you have ever been angry, or lied, theres the sin you ned to be forgiven for. God is saving you not from God, but from eternal separation from Him and His joy. As far as hell, I’ve heard God made it for Lucifer(Satan) and his angels(demons). Then man sinned, and was qualified to go there as well. Unlike the demons, man has a way out. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/134 "2005-03-09T03:17:52Z")
I’m pretty sure we all make our own hell, Homebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/135 "2005-03-09T03:18:41Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > Explain please? The whole system is set up by God in the first place. The only punishment comes from God, so the only thing to be saved from is God. If he doesn’t want to burn people he can just _decide_ not to do it. No crucifixion necessary. No faith necessary. No repentance necessary. All he has to do is decide. Nothing can happen unless God wants it too, so a “saviour” is completely unneccesary. ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/136 "2005-03-09T03:21:54Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > If you have ever been angry, or lied, theres the sin you ned to be forgiven for. > God is saving you not from God, but from eternal separation from Him and His joy. > As far as hell, I’ve heard God made it for Lucifer(Satan) and his angels(demons). Then man sinned, and was qualified to go there as well. Unlike the demons, man has a way out. And really, it’s your choice whether or not you go to heaven or hell. When God judges you, he looks at your life and depending on what you’ve done in your life, He will send you where he feels you belong. Your judgment depends on the choices you have made in life. I don’t know how else to explain it… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/137 "2005-03-09T03:24:30Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > If you have ever been angry, or lied, theres the sin you ned to be forgiven for. Why do I need to be forgiven for being angry? The only person who needs to forgive me for lying is the person I lied to. > [@](#): > > God is saving you not from God, but from eternal separation from Him and His joy. And whose decision is to separate me from his “joy?” If God wants to get his joy on me, I’m not stopping him. > [@](#): > > As far as hell, I’ve heard God made it for Lucifer(Satan) and his angels(demons). Then man sinned, and was qualified to go there as well. Unlike the demons, man has a way out. None of this is in the Bible. Actually, there is no hell in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/138 "2005-03-09T03:28:01Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > And really, it’s your choice whether or not you go to heaven or hell. When God judges you, he looks at your life and depending on what you’ve done in your life, He will send you where he feels you belong. Your judgment depends on the choices you have made in life. I don’t know how else to explain it… How can you say it’s my choice in one sentence and then say God sends me where he “feels I belong” in the next. And God has no right to judge me as long as he is unwilling to prove his own existence. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/139 "2005-03-09T03:52:30Z")
From what I have been told, separation from God, lake of fire is pretty much what is meant by hell. One cannot get into Heaven without being sinless. Mankind is sinful, all of em. Jesus took the punishment for our sins, hence the need for a perfect sacrifice;which was exampled by the killing of the lamb without blemish. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/140 "2005-03-09T04:19:14Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > From what I have been told, separation from God, lake of fire is pretty much what is meant by hell. The “Lake of Fire” is an image from Revelation (a highly allegorical book) where “Satan and his devils” will supposedly be cast. The popular conception of hell as a place of eternal punishment for sinners is not in the bible. > [@](#): > > One cannot get into Heaven without being sinless. Why not? > [@](#): > > Mankind is sinful, all of em. Cite? And so what? I sall “sin” equal? Is there some reason God can’t let sinners into Heaven? > [@](#): > > Jesus took the punishment for our sins, Why does there need to be punishment? > [@](#): > > hence the need for a perfect sacrifice;which was exampled by the killing of the lamb without blemish. Why does there need to be a sacrifice? Why can’t God just _decide_ not to torture people (or exlude them from his joy or whatever)? What is the point of a sacrifice? Why does God have to become a human and then commit suicide in order to stop himself from torturing people forever for petty violations of rules which he himself invented? And if God is really going to do that then why doesn’t he have the decency to at least provide some _proof_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=8)