# gobear and Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427 "2005-03-07T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/161 "2005-03-09T17:06:48Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Thank you. My point exactly. Not exactly modus tollens, is it? Well, one make a good argument based on flawed premises. The fault of **Metacom** ’s example is the conflation of “American” with “person who voted for George Bush”; one can show that the set of “Americans” includes non-George Bush voters. So, is there a set of Christians who don’t believe in Christ as savior, not unlike Hazel Motes’s church in Flannery O’Connor’s novel, _Wise Blood_? And **Polycarp** is spot on in his exegesis of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/162 "2005-03-09T17:15:42Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Oh no!! Please, please, Mr. Gobear, don’t hit me with the full force of your ire. > > [sub]Odd though, that you have so much ear scorching wrath for someone merely interested in making theological point…[/sub] Obviously, you missed the hypothetical conditional “if”. If I had wanted to be wrathful, I would have done. My intention is to discuss, and I don’t have any wrath. Well, except for your dishonesty and snide comments, but that’s par from the course from the faithful. Many Christians get really vengeful when you tell them they aren’t as full of love as they think they are. (Picture Waverly in the Mandy Moore role in _Saved_, throwing a Bible at me: “I’m _filled_ with Christ’s love!” I’m sure if you had access to my parking lot, I’d find my car keyed. You seem to be that sort of person. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/163 "2005-03-09T17:29:34Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > The fault of **Metacom** ’s example is the conflation of “American” with “person who voted for George Bush”; one can show that the set of “Americans” includes non-George Bush voters. So, is there a set of Christians who don’t believe in Christ as savior, not unlike Hazel Motes’s church in Flannery O’Connor’s novel, _Wise Blood_? Your original syllogism did not state “Christians believe in Christ as savior” it stated “Christians believe in salvation through submitting to Jesus, not by works.” They’re not equivalent statements. You’re trying to discredit my argument by implying that you said something differently then the statement I was replying too–a classic example of _argumentum ad asshole_. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/164 "2005-03-09T17:34:08Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, one make a good argument based on flawed premises. The fault of **Metacom** ’s example is the conflation of “American” with “person who voted for George Bush”; one can show that the set of “Americans” includes non-George Bush voters. So, is there a set of Christians who don’t believe in Christ as savior No, but there are christians who believe in salvation through belief in Jesus **and** by doing good works. So I guess your arguement is based on a flawed premise. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/165 "2005-03-09T17:38:36Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > No, but there are christians who believe in salvation through belief in Jesus **and** by doing good works. And their are Christians who believe that Christ saves all, no matter what the individual believes or does. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/166 "2005-03-09T17:47:09Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > So, is there a set of Christians who don’t believe in Christ as savior…? No, but there are plenty of Christians who believe that salvation does not come _only_ from faith alone. But you go on now with your dishonest and duplicitous bullshit…cause frankly it’s just making you look like an idiot. Your “debating” tactics and bigoted nature are shining through quite well in this thread, so I suppose I got my explanation after all. As did anyone else reading your silly little nonsense. Oh, and substitute “fags” for “the faithful” in your (yet another) bigoted generalization and perhaps you’ll see how you’re looking at a mirror when others treat you like shit. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/167 "2005-03-09T17:48:30Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Your original syllogism did not state “Christians believe in Christ as savior” it stated “Christians believe in salvation through submitting to Jesus, not by works.” They’re not equivalent statements. You’re trying to discredit my argument by implying that you said something differently then the statement I was replying too–a classic example of _argumentum ad asshole_. My error, I should have used the exact wording, you are quite correct. > [@](#): > > No, but there are christians who believe in salvation through belief in Jesus and by doing good works. They are, at best, heretical Christians teaching non-Biblical doctrines, but I’ll spot you the point and agree that my premise was flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/168 "2005-03-09T17:50:54Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, except for your dishonesty and snide comments, but that’s par from the course from the faithful. Many Christians get really vengeful when you tell them they aren’t as full of love as they think they are. (Picture Waverly in the Mandy Moore role in _Saved_, throwing a Bible at me: “I’m _filled_ with Christ’s love!” > > I’m sure if you had access to my parking lot, I’d find my car keyed. You seem to be that sort of person. Before you go arse over addled-pate deep-end on us, I must insist that you back up your accusation of dishonesty. And I certainly _ain’t_ too terribly filled with Christ’s love there, cowboy. Just as I wasn’t Hindu when I was appalled at your attack of a Hindu board member’s beliefs; just as I wasn’t Muslim when I was outraged by the bile you spewed on all things Arab and Muslim, just as I wasn’t German when I was bemused by your assertion that all German’s were knowing accessories to the holocaust. Do you need the links? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204499](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=204499) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171145](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171145) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=146671&perpage=50&highlight=Gobear%20religion&pagenumber=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=146671&perpage=50&highlight=Gobear%20religion&pagenumber=2) I’m sure there are other examples; feel free to refresh my memory. No, Gobear, my gripe with you is that you are an arrogant, intolerant, dipshit. Worse, every time I think you have learned something, you prove me wrong be slipping back into the same rut. It’s not worth throwing a book at you or keying your car, but I’ll be uncle-buggered if I let even the most even tempered dopers convince me that you really are a good chap. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/169 "2005-03-09T17:59:55Z")
> [@leander](#): > > No, but there are plenty of Christians who believe that salvation does not come _only_ from faith alone. But you go on now with your dishonest and duplicitous bullshit…cause frankly it’s just making you look like an idiot. Your “debating” tactics and bigoted nature are shining through quite well in this thread, so I suppose I got my explanation after all. As did anyone else reading your silly little nonsense. Well, the term “Christian” seems to have no meaning that anyone here can agree on–no two of you seem to agree on the nature of Jesus, or salvation, or the value of works. There is clearly no such thing as a Christain because novbody here, inclduing me, can come up with a cleaqr, all-encompassing defintion for the term. > [@](#): > > Oh, and substitute “fags” for “the faithful” in your (yet another) bigoted generalization and perhaps you’ll see how you’re looking at a mirror when others treat you like shit. :smack: [/quote] A. I have treated nobody like shit, I’m talking about what Christians believe, i.e. power over virtue. You have shown me so clearly the (OW!) strength of Christian love. You are indeed the avatar of virtue. B. You are the one doing the namecalling and spewing vitriol, yet I’m the bad guy. How droll. C. Getting to call me a fag must have felt good. Too bad I’m not black, then you could call me a nigger. That would really satisfy you. Your calling me a bigot is mere projection of your own prejudice. Discussing ideas is not bigotry. You might as well call Democrats bigots because they disagree with the GOP, or socialists because they oppose capitalism. You cling to victim language because you cannot tolerate criticism of your pet religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/170 "2005-03-09T18:08:51Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > They are, at best, heretical Christians teaching non-Biblical doctrines, but I’ll spot you the point and agree that my premise was flawed. Do you like porridge? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/171 "2005-03-09T18:12:49Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, the term “Christian” seems to have no meaning that anyone here can agree on–no two of you seem to agree on the nature of Jesus, or salvation, or the value of works. There is clearly no such thing as a Christain because novbody here, inclduing me, can come up with a cleaqr, all-encompassing defintion for the term. There are clear, all encompasing definitions of the term. A Christian is someone who follows a religion based on the life of Christ. It’s in the dictionary. People may not be able to agree on what _Christian belief_ should be, but that is not the same thing as not being able to agree on what a “Christian” is. > [@gobear](#): > > A. I have treated nobody like shit, I’m talking about what Christians believe, i.e. power over virtue. You have shown me so clearly the (OW!) strength of Christian love. You are indeed the avatar of virtue. No, you have indeed treated people like shit. You’re doing it in this very list item, when you say that Christians believe in power over virtue and with your “shown me clearly the strength of Christian love” barb. The former comment is shitty because your implying that adherents of Christianity are hypocrites, and the latter comment is shitty because one can love someone but still think they’re an asshole and disagree with them. > [@gobear](#): > > B. You are the one doing the namecalling and spewing vitriol, yet I’m the bad guy. How droll. This comment is shitty because it’s quite possible to be a “bad guy” without using namecalling or vitriol. There are plenty of other more subtle and slimey ways to insult someone. > [@gobear](#): > > C. Getting to call me a fag must have felt good. Too bad I’m not black, then you could call me a nigger. That would really satisfy you. Your calling me a bigot is mere projection of your own prejudice. This comment is shitty because you’re implying he’s a bigot because he called you one. > [@gobear](#): > > Discussing ideas is not bigotry. You might as well call Democrats bigots because they disagree with the GOP, or socialists because they oppose capitalism. You cling to victim language because you cannot tolerate criticism of your pet religion. {Edited to fix quote tags per poster’s request. Lynn} ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/172 "2005-03-09T18:14:23Z")
Please ignore the “Discussing ideas is not …” and everything after it in my last post. I messed up a quote tag–that’s **gobear** and not me. I’ll ask a mod to fix it to avoid confusion. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/173 "2005-03-09T18:16:51Z")
Once again, you completely miss the point. This is becoming quite tiresome. For someone who proclaims such erudition your stupidity is wearing thin. And btw, the old “people are attacking me for being a bigoted idiot…see, see! I was right about Christians” line is so transparent that I’m surprised even you would try to pull that one out of your ass. Anyway, it’s all up there for people to read. And really, if you have any desire to keep your “good” gobear image going, then it’s time for the regularly-scheduled backpedal. So there’s little else to say, except…getting to use the word nigger must have felt good. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/174 "2005-03-09T18:19:40Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > This comment is shitty because it’s quite possible to be a “bad guy” without using namecalling or vitriol. There are plenty of other more subtle and slimey ways to insult someone. Yeah, because if you want someone to respect your Christianity, the best way to do it is to use namecalling and vitriol. Luckily, if that doesn’t work there are more subtle and slimey ways to insult them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/175 "2005-03-09T18:27:41Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Yeah, because if you want someone to respect your Christianity, the best way to do it is to use namecalling and vitriol. Luckily, if that doesn’t work there are more subtle and slimey ways to insult them. :rolleyes: I tried discussing this respectfully. Go check out the first page if you doubt that. But the whole “turn the other cheek” thing ain’t so easy, ya know? And, as I said above, using the argument that somehow when a Christian acts like an asshole they’re exposing the whole “love” thing as a fraud is just as dumb as when Christians excuse themselves for acting like an asshole cause “we’re all sinners”. Sometimes, we’re all just assholes! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/176 "2005-03-09T18:27:51Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Yeah, because if you want someone to respect your Christianity, the best way to do it is to use namecalling and vitriol. Luckily, if that doesn’t work there are more subtle and slimey ways to insult them. :rolleyes: I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here. If you’re implying that I’m trying to get **gobear** to “respect my Christianity,” then I’d argue that there is no “best way” to get someone to respect Christianity, because people are different and response differently to different arguments. Additionally, I think **gobear** is too consumed by bigotry to ever “respect” Christianity, and that’s not really my goal in conversing with him here. If that’s not the point you were trying to make, please articulate it more clearly. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/177 "2005-03-09T18:29:33Z")
I was RIGHT about the Germans cooperating in the Holocaust; Who do you think built the crematoria, staffed the camps, and handed in their neighbors for resettlement? Who do you think we fought in WWII? Was every German a Nazi? Of course not, and I even brought up the White Rose League and the Confessing Church, and one of its most prominent leaders, Dietrich Bonhoeffer But to say that the Germans were not the architects of the Holocaust is jhust insanity. But the SDMB has an unreasonable idea that there can be no such thing as a universal categorization. “There were only a few Nazis, and most Germans had no idea the Holocaust happened” Maybe in your historical revisionist fantasyland. Dipshit I may be, but I am hardly intolerant. Tolerance means putting up with things you don’t agree with. If I agreed with it, that would be acceptance. What I am is a hard atheist. That means that I do not accept the reality of any religion. Every single one is nothing but fantasy to stave off the reality of death and the end of personal existence and to exert control over the gullible, IMO . I have also stuck up for the religious [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=193341&highlight=Gobear+Christians), for example. And many times in GD against overzealous atheists, but you don;t mentiion those. Like I said, dishonest. > [@](#): > > There are clear, all encompasing definitions of the term. A Christian is someone who follows a religion based on the life of Christ. It’s in the dictionary. People may not be able to agree on what Christian belief should be, but that is not the same thing as not being able to agree on what a “Christian” is. If you cannot define the belief, then you can’t define its adherents. “What’s a Christian? Someone who believes in Christianity. What’s that? I dunno.” > [@](#): > > No, you have indeed treated people like shit. You’re doing it in this very list item, when you say that Christians believe in power over virtue and with your “shown me clearly the strength of Christian love” barb. The former comment is shitty because your implying that adherents of Christianity are hypocrites, As has been pointed out, I am **not** insulting Christians, I’m discussing the nature of the faith, i.e. that one only has to be obedient to be a Christian and not virtuous. For all I care, you can stipulate that all Christians are saints and my point would still stand–the religion requires obedience and not positive virtue to be saved. It might encourage virtue, but that’s not the key to salvation. But you insist that I’m insulting you because I’m making a point about the religion’s tenets. > [@](#): > > and the latter comment is shitty because one can love someone but still think they’re an asshole and disagree with them. You hate me, you don’t love me, so that makes no sense. > [@](#): > > This comment is shitty because you’re implying he’s a bigot because he called you one He did indeed call me a fag (I’m not fooled by his guise of “illustrating an analogy”), and that makes him a bigot. No backpedaling here, \*\*Leander[/b[. _Hier Ich stehe, Ich kann nicht anderes_. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/178 "2005-03-09T18:35:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Additionally, I think gobear is too consumed by bigotry to ever “respect” Christianity, and that’s not really my goal in conversing with him here. Please explain how vehement disagreement is “bigotry.” > [@](#): > > I tried discussing this respectfully. Go check out the first page if you doubt that. But the whole “turn the other cheek” thing ain’t so easy, ya know? Say what? Ypu set this up as a forum for others to attack me, and you have been vitriolic from the get-go. Plus you got to whip out calling me a fag in such a manner that you wouldn’t get in any trouble. Kudos to you for your ingenuity. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/179 "2005-03-09T18:35:52Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I tried discussing this respectfully. Go check out the first page if you doubt that. But the whole “turn the other cheek” thing ain’t so easy, ya know? > > And, as I said above, using the argument that somehow when a Christian acts like an asshole they’re exposing the whole “love” thing as a fraud is just as dumb as when Christians excuse themselves for acting like an asshole cause “we’re all sinners”. > > Sometimes, we’re all just assholes! 🙂 Let me quote myself from Post #88 in this thread. > [@](#): > > > [@beagledave](#): > > > > You forgot the part where he’ll criticize someone for not being Christ like because they swear or call other posters names. > > From what I can gather, being a Christian seems to bear no relationship to whether a person is an asshole, a lunkhead or a pretty decent human being … So if being a Christian doesn’t mean anything; if it doesn’t make someone strive for social justice (Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness); if it doesn’t make someone work for peace (blessed are the peacemakers); if it doesn’t make someone at least try to forego insults (blessed are the meek in spirit); if it doesn’t make someone charitable (Blessed are the merciful) then what the fuck good is it? ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427/180 "2005-03-09T18:44:10Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Say what? Ypu set this up as a forum for others to attack me, and you have been vitriolic from the get-go. See, that’s a lie. And it’s such a stupid one, cause people can just look at the first page and see exactly what I posted. > [@](#): > > He did indeed call me a fag (I’m not fooled by his guise of “illustrating an analogy”), and that makes him a bigot. Oh, quit your whining you big baby. If you think I called you a fag then go report it to a mod. See what they do. Otherwise enough with trying to twist shit away from your bigotry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobear-and-christianity/293427.md?page=10)