# Gobekli Tepe: What do we really know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508 "2018-08-30T06:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/181 "2019-06-16T10:21:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So my next guess is porn. [So hot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines_of_G%C3%B6nnersdorf#/media/File:Gonnersdorfp1100214.jpg)! [So sexay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Buret%27#/media/File:Buretj_(venus_figurine).gif)! [Mmm, baby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Monruz#/media/File:Lat%C3%A9nium-dame-Monruz.jpg)! [Could it \*be \*any more smutty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westray_Wife#/media/File:Westray_Wife_20110529.jpg)? I hear [coneheads are the latest fetish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Savignano#/media/File:Savignano_face.jpg)! My point being - many paleolithic figurines are so stylized that it’s really hard to see anyone getting off on them. Although - there’s a fetish for everyone, I guess (pun intended) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/182 "2019-06-16T12:22:29Z")
Are you saying modern porn is any more realistic? Just because they distorted the female form in a different way than we do, doesn’t mean they’re distorting it more. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/183 "2019-06-16T13:51:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are you saying modern porn is any more realistic? Not just modern porn, either - everything from the Moche pottery to Edo period _shunga_ to Indian temple sculpture to whatever’s on Pornhub is much , \*much \*more realistic than what I linked to. > [@](#): > > Just because they distorted the female form in a different way than we do, doesn’t mean they’re distorting it more. That’s not distorting, that’s abstraction. Hyper-abstraction, for a lot of it. Did you actually \*look \*at the examples I linked to? \*Picasso \*would look at those and go “Errm, maybe a bit tooo abstract…” Go on, show me some -any - modern abstract porn like that…not art, unquestionable _porn_. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/184 "2019-06-16T20:50:19Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > No, this is not what Lynne Kelly is saying. > > My summary: > > 1. Many indigenous cultures preserve surprisingly large amounts of knowledge, despite having no written language: > > - The characteristics, and medicinal, food, and other uses of many hundreds of different species of plants and trees. (e.g the Hanunóo in the Philippines in the 19th century could name, describe, and explain 1,625 plant species.) > - Hundreds of animal and marine species ditto, their defining chatracteristics, habitats, behaviour, life-cycles, hunting techniques, uses, etc. > - Similarly the characteristics of insects. (e.g. North American Navajo have worked with ethnoentomologists to classify and describe over 700 species of insects.) > - Medical knowledge of how to diagnose and treat numerous different illnesses and types of wounds. > - Navigation and ‘maps’ to numerous locations, often over distances of hundreds or even thousands of miles. > - Knowledge of currents, tides, and winds for cultures connected with sea. > - History of tribes, often covering many centuries. > - Treaties, agreements, borders with other tribes. > - Detailed genealogies and family trees, often going back several centuries. > - Stars and constellations (used for directional purposes as well as to tell time of night), lunar and solar cycles, seasonal variations. > - Dates and places of regular large gatherings. > - Notable historical natural events such as earthquakes, volcanoes, fires, comets. > - What to do in rare events, such as serious droughts and floods that occur once in several generations, when normal food sources are not available. > - Etc, etc. > > 1. All this knowledge is preserved by the use of memory techniques, which involve, but are not limited to: > > - Totem poles, memory boards, small shaped stone, wood, or leather objects of various kinds. > - Abstract or representative paintings and designs. > - Knotted chords. > - Landscape features in ‘sacred’ spots, and ‘ritual’ journeys through a number of such landscape features. > > And particularly: > > - Songs. > - Dances. > - Mnemonic stories. > > - All of these may be used in combination or separately. > > e.g. > Lynne Kelly gives a large number of such examples, with citations to published papers. > 4. In many cultures this body of knowledge is so large that it takes years of dedicated effort to learn. This results in a special caste of people whose function it is to preserve the knowledge, while most people only memorise a smaller amount of everyday knowledge. > > 1. It is a category mistake to think that the primary function of songs, dances, rituals, ritual objects and places, and the ‘priestly’ caste is religion and worship. A small part of it may indeed be religion and worship, but the great bulk of it is about preserving detailed knowledge and facts. > > 2. It is not a big leap to connect, say, the stone posts at Gobekli Tepe, with North American totem poles and other such objects in other cultures, and guess that they may have served a similar purpose. > > 3. Usually regular gatherings are held, which in Australia may involve thousands of people, to refresh and remember the songs, dances, etc. which encode the knowledge of the culture. These gatherings are held at places where knowledge is encoded in features of the landscape. > > 4. We can theorise that larger, more settled and sophisticated cultures may have created purpose-built ‘landscape objects’ such as stone circles and places like Gobekli Tepe for such gatherings. I am with you up to and including point #5 which I especially agree with. Point 6 is in fact a big leap. Knowing nothing of substance about either culture you have nothing to base even a guess on. Point 7 assumes that the behaviours of an isolated group of island dwellers can be extrapolated to the wider human population. It can’t. Point 8 is absolutely correct. We can also theorize that gigantic kitty cats buried the structure under so much litter. We can theorize that but theorizing doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/185 "2020-04-27T01:21:49Z")
> **[Israeli archaeologists find hidden pattern at ‘world’s oldest temple’ Göbekli...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-04-28/ty-article/.premium/israeli-archaeologists-find-hidden-pattern-at-gobekli-tepe/0000017f-db13-d856-a37f-ffd3e7620000)** > > \*\*\* I\*f anything, a discovery by Israeli archaeologists suggests the Göbekli Tepe construction project was even more complex than previously thought, and required an amount of planning and resources thought to be impossible for those times. Their study of the three oldest stone enclosures at Göbekli Tepe has revealed a hidden geometric pattern, specifically an equilateral triangle, underlying the entire architectural plan of these structures. This implies that, in contrast to the prevailing assumption among Göbekli researchers until now, these three circles were planned as a single unit and possibly built at the same time, say archaeologists Gil Haklay and Avi Gopher of Tel Aviv University.\* ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/186 "2020-04-27T03:35:01Z")
Interesting and rather odd article. > [@](#): > > The southern side of the triangle runs through the central stone pillars of enclosures B and C, creating a base for the polygon. The axis perpendicular to this line runs through the entire site and ends in the center of enclosure D, which can be interpreted as the top of the pyramid. This suggests that the builders understood and wished to represent the idea of a hierarchy, perhaps intending to crystalize the new order of a less equal and more stratified society, Haklay and Gopher maintain. 😕 How does that geometrical shape mean that the builders wanted to crystalize a less equal society? > [@](#): > > Gopher maintains. “Hunter-gatherers cannot domesticate anything What about dogs? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/187 "2020-04-27T03:59:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What about dogs? Yes, there might have been a halfway when we followed prey herds at arm’s length, the transition from hunter-gatherer to pastoralism might have been a smooth one. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/188 "2020-04-27T04:46:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Interesting and rather odd article. > > 😕 How does that geometrical shape mean that the builders wanted to crystalize a less equal society? What? Haven’t you seen hierarchical pyramids showing [management structure](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/pFKKGgcIIU-cD_sq9g8JPDxT4Gncv65oyuA22TAhWeayQ2ceNMZixy7aanfp_bXz57oWn2Ra0N8uuDnpmqZdn5qOq-4A77G3Bx1RiELHp1y755I9QessIEDv4_Ai) in corporations, or [feudal hierarchies](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-i-hqtYusy6s/UUaLPf2si1I/AAAAAAAAFbc/sOp_RLzbCME/s1600/Screen+shot+2013-03-12+at+7.01.37+PM.png)? Diagrams like these are very popular in Powerpoint presentations. 🙂 What other significance could a triangle possibly have? Obviously those hunter-gatherers must have used the location for corporate team-building events. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/189 "2020-04-27T05:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > “Hunter-gatherers cannot domesticate anything, it’s against their world view, which is based on equality and trust. Once that ideology changes, the entire structure of society is transformed and a new world is born.” Sure, it’s totally against their world view. Because hunter-gatherers are like new-age hippy types, man. They are into that whole ‘one with nature’ thing and all that. It would be against their principles to like, you know, domesticate animals. They are into that whole conservation thing, no cruelty to animals, vegan diet, and yoga. They don’t believe in selfishly using animals. But some guy got the idea that he would be the boss. So he laid out that whole place in a triangle to show them the idea of hierarchies, and employed them on zero-hour contracts. That’s how they got converted to agriculturists, man. That is the scientific conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/190 "2020-04-27T05:55:48Z")
On a different note, and in a slightly off-topic direction, have you seen the Australian Aboriginal movie _**Ten Canoes (2006)**_? It’s probably the best movie ever made about hunter-gatherers, and certainly the most entertaining. It gives a real insight. [Ten Canoes Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6GKoQ5Cxg) [Clip of the first few minutes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyP1uOeftgA). ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/191 "2020-04-27T09:13:30Z")
Reading the last year’s worth of posts, I’m not sure if Gobekle Tepe is on or off topic in this thread any longer :), but there was just a good Skeptoid on it: > **[Decoding Gobekli Tepe](https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4724)** > > This archaeological site in Turkey is said to change everything... but what does that really mean? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/192 "2020-04-27T09:55:31Z")
Also rereading, I want to question a claim made earlier: That porn has been ubiquitous throughout human history and even prehistory. Are there clear examples of “porn” before, say, the Bronze Age? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/193 "2020-04-27T11:11:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are there clear examples of “porn” before, say, the Bronze Age? I think some people consider the various [Venus figurines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines), found throughout Eurasia, to be porn. Could be, but likely we’ll never know for sure what their purpose was. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/194 "2020-04-27T11:40:06Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I think some people consider the various [Venus figurines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines), found throughout Eurasia, to be porn. Have you \*read \*the thread. Hell, just read _this page_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/195 "2020-04-27T11:44:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Israeli Archaeologists Find Hidden Pattern at ‘World’s Oldest Temple’ Göbekli Tepe - Israel News - Haaretz.com](https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-israeli-archaeologists-find-hidden-pattern-at-gobekli-tepe-1.8799837?fbclid=IwAR3nAdLj0ZwTxntm_EVMTtNpdatbr0Nbq5dnHb1PgI_Ca1ndPip5scmAqRs) > I\*f anything, a discovery by Israeli archaeologists suggests the Göbekli Tepe construction project was even more complex than previously thought, and required an amount of planning and resources thought to be impossible for those times. Their study of the three oldest stone enclosures at Göbekli Tepe has revealed a hidden geometric pattern, specifically an equilateral triangle, underlying the entire architectural plan of these structures. What’s so amazing about equilateral triangles? They are one of the most basic geometric shapes. And there’s a bit of a leap there - just because 3 buildings have a geometric relationship does not mean they were built at the same time, or planned that way. I could come and build a second building 100 years later at distance X. And when Og comes along another century later, he wants to build his Big Man monument equidistant from both of ours…and there’s only one geometric figure that supports that, quite organically. Not by chance, but not one big plan, either. That’s equally as plausible. But even if they were built at the same time - this would be in line with the current thinking that it was a cultic site, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/196 "2020-04-27T11:58:36Z")
The difficulty with “clear examples of bronze-age porn” is that, any time anyone finds any, someone says “How do we know it’s porn? There’s no evidence that bronze-age people had porn”. The only way to settle it would be to ask the sculptor, which is of course impossible. The default assumption should rather be that people in different times and places are mostly similar, and ask what evidence there is that they _didn’t_ have porn. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/197 "2020-04-27T12:09:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Interesting and rather odd article. > > 😕 How does that geometrical shape mean that the builders wanted to crystalize a less equal society? > > What about dogs? They had dogs. They predate other domesticated animals by at least twenty thousand years. They were camp-followers for probably tens of thousands of years before ever being “bred” for specific purposes. Because they are social hunters it was a simple transition to helping humans with hunting. On the other hand they’ve never been really good at gathering. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/198 "2020-04-27T12:25:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The difficulty with “clear examples of bronze-age porn” is that, any time anyone finds any, someone says “How do we know it’s porn? There’s no evidence that bronze-age people had porn”. The only way to settle it would be to ask the sculptor, which is of course impossible. The default assumption should rather be that people in different times and places are mostly similar, and ask what evidence there is that they _didn’t_ have porn. Maybe. But we are now removed from the previously ubiquitous human sense that the numinous is everywhere, that sexuality is holy and potentially dangerous, and that women hold a (dark) power men don’t have. If we are reduced to depictions of women with breasts = porn, I believe we’ve reached the ultimate shallows of patriarchal reductionist interpretation of the past. Note I am not saying words like matriarchy, or harmony with all life. No need to go there. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/199 "2020-04-27T13:12:26Z")
I’m hoping to be educated; hence my question. There are various reasons why “primitive” societies might not need or want porn: more intimate social life, lack of boredom or leisure, dramatically different morality and class structures. (We’ll also need a definition of porn: Are classical nude statues porn?) _ **Maybe the question is unanswerable.** _ But circularity is unacceptable. We have the claim, paraphrased, that the Venus figurines were probably porn, because porn was common in the Stone Age. And now I read that the claim that porn was common in the Stone Age is based on the Venus figurines! _Figurines whose consistency is at odds with the notion of opportunistic “porn.”_ Again, I apologize for not knowing the Latin expression for such circular reasoning. 🙂 (Admittedly prehistoric “magic” was fuzzy; and sexuality and religion might share an umbrella.) > [@Chronos](#): > > The difficulty with “clear examples of bronze-age porn” is that, any time anyone finds any, someone says “How do we know it’s porn? There’s no evidence that bronze-age people had porn”. The only way to settle it would be to ask the sculptor, which is of course impossible. The default assumption should rather be that people in different times and places are mostly similar, and ask what evidence there is that they _didn’t_ have porn. I don’t need a cite for porn being ubiquitous during the 20th century! Maybe you can provide much evidence for the Middle Ages and even the early Iron Age. But to extrapolate from the commonness of porn in modern times or even the Iron Age to the assumption that it was common in the Early Stone Age strikes me as excessive leaping. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/200 "2020-04-27T13:22:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s so amazing about equilateral triangles? They are one of the most basic geometric shapes. > > And there’s a bit of a leap there - just because 3 buildings have a geometric relationship does not mean they were built at the same time, or planned that way. > > I could come and build a second building 100 years later at distance X. And when Og comes along another century later, he wants to build his Big Man monument equidistant from both of ours…and there’s only one geometric figure that supports that, quite organically. Not by chance, but not one big plan, either. That’s equally as plausible. > > But even if they were built at the same time - this would be in line with the current thinking that it was a cultic site, anyway. Plus equilateral triangles are stable. Besides, for all we know, they were placed that way because they thought it looked the best or thought the gods would appreciate that shape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=11)