# Gobekli Tepe: What do we really know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508 "2018-08-30T06:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/41 "2018-08-31T12:53:08Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Things like Göbekli Tepe, evidence of earlier humans in the Americas, especially early pottery finds like [Jomon Pottery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period#Earliest_pottery) (c1650BP), etc. are telling a different story. You missed a zero in that date. Furthermore, that page points out that even earlier pottery was found in somewhere in China going back to 20,000 BCE or so. I do have to wonder if Göbekli Tepe was more the result of a personality cult rather than a religion. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/42 "2018-08-31T13:21:16Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And it wasn’t just a one-off–[similar things were being made across Europe and Asia over a period of 25,000 years or more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines). > > Of course, depictions of naked chicks aren’t _that_ suprising. What I find more weird is the theme of [pooping animal atlatlii](http://rockartblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-unique-theme-in-paleolithic-portable.html?m=1). (That is a great blog, BTW–well worth browsing.) As I said, the thing that surprises me is that contrary to our notion of hunter-gatherers living a nomadic subsistence existence, the Venus of Willendorf (like many similar) is a relatively accurate depiction of extreme obesity; the fat rolls are very accurately depicted, suggesting the artist had at least one model to work from life - and that implies the tribe likely did not habitually migrate decent distances - I can’t imagine someone looking like that and still walking several miles a day or more and doing heavy physical labour involved in food preparation from scratch. We can speculate the “how” or “why” of her appearance, but it is an interesting indication. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/43 "2018-08-31T13:21:21Z")
> [@](#): > > I do have to wonder if Göbekli Tepe was more the result of a personality cult rather than a religion. Very often the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/44 "2018-08-31T13:35:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let’s get one thing clear - whatever culture built Göbekli Tepe was \*not \*a civilization What kind of definition of “civilization” are we using here? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/45 "2018-08-31T13:35:24Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As I said, the thing that surprises me is that […] the Venus of Willendorf (like many similar) is a relatively accurate depiction of extreme obesity; Except it isn’t, though. For instance, even obese people usually have feet. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/46 "2018-08-31T13:40:02Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > What kind of definition of “civilization” are we using here? The kind that requires cities. like it says on the tin. Or the _stannum_, even. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/47 "2018-08-31T13:47:55Z")
What definition for “city” are we using here? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/48 "2018-08-31T13:49:58Z")
Are we \*really \*playing this fucking stupid game? What definition of “definition” are \*you \*using? And of “we”? And “using”? Where’s “here”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/49 "2018-08-31T13:55:09Z")
The status of whether Göbekli Tepe is a city or not is apparently important. So what do archeologists consider to be a city? In my layman’s view, a city is simply a small area where lots of people are living. Göbekli Tepe would seem to qualify, but I guess not. Please fight ignorance here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/50 "2018-08-31T14:10:37Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > In my layman’s view, a city is simply a small area where lots of people are living. No, a city is a \*large \* \*settlement \*where lots of people live. Size is _the_ defining feature of a city - what contrasts the city with the town or hamlet. Even a layman should know this - even if English were not their first language - this isn’t some special archaeological term. To an archaeologist, though, other characteristics can include: permanence, urban planning, sanitation, trade, social stratification, non-agricultural specialization, provision of centralized commercial, religious and political functions for a larger hinterland, etc. The list isn’t exhaustive, nor is it prescriptive. > [@](#): > > Göbekli Tepe would seem to qualify, but I guess not. Please fight ignorance here. For one thing, there’s absolutely no sign anyone permanently lived at Göbekli Tepe - no hearths, no houses, no burials. It’s \*not \*a settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/51 "2018-08-31T14:15:17Z")
I don’t think its an unreasonable question. I am sorry if that offends you. Georadar surveys show that the area currently being excavated is at most 25% of the full size of the site. All areas seem to show the same large stone pillar architecture. Given the size and the overlap in time and location with the origin of wheat cultivation, I am curious as to how we can totally dismiss the notion that there were some kind of large permanent settlements involved or that some may have accreted around the complex. If not co-located then nearby. We don’t need to postulate anything the size or population density of the Cucuteni–Trypillia or similar fully agricultural culture. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/52 "2018-08-31T14:21:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, a city is a \*large \* \*settlement \*where lots of people live. Size is _the_ defining feature of a city - what contrasts the city with the town or hamlet. Even a layman should know this - even if English were not their first language - this isn’t some special archaeological term. A definition that contrasts a city with a town or hamlet seems pretty useless in this case, though, since I severely doubt there was any distinction made at that time. What I was more uncertain about was whether there exists some minimum size, or if “lots of people” is a relative term, since lots of people in the Ice Age is not necessarily a large number to us. > [@MrDibble](#): > > To an archaeologist, though, other characteristics can include: permanence, urban planning, sanitation, trade, social stratification, non-agricultural specialization, provision of centralized commercial, religious and political functions for a larger hinterland, etc. The list isn’t exhaustive, nor is it prescriptive. For one thing, there’s absolutely no sign anyone permanently lived at Göbekli Tepe - no hearths, no houses, no burials. It’s \*not \*a settlement. Thank you, that answers my question. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/53 "2018-08-31T14:30:56Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I don’t think its an unreasonable question. I am sorry if that offends you. Georadar surveys show that the area currently being excavated is at most 25% of the full size of the site. All areas seem to show the same large stone pillar architecture. Exactly - more of the same, \*not \*houses. > [@](#): > > Given the size and the overlap in time and location with the origin of wheat cultivation, There isn’t an overlap in origin, though. Wheat cultivation (not gathering of wild wheat) starts \*after \*the site is already in place. > [@](#): > > I am curious as to how we can totally dismiss the notion that there were some kind of large permanent settlements involved or that some may have accreted around the complex. We can dismiss the notion of \*large \*settlements because it’s \*not \*like they haven’t looked for them, and no evidence has turned up. Plus the subsistence pattern we do have evidence for is that of large-scale hunting, not agricultural settlements. I’m not saying that future finds won’t turn up \*some \*houses. But it won’t be a city. Even Çatalhöyük was not a city. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/54 "2018-08-31T14:43:10Z")
Thank you for explaining terms as used by scientists. Is agriculture considered a necessary condition for a settlement? Does permanence refer to year-round habitation or to immobility of the shelter, or both? For example, if people live in the same tent at the same location for many years, is that a permanent habitat? Or, if people live in a stone hut for three weeks each year but elsewhere the rest of time, is that a permanent habitat? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/55 "2018-08-31T14:52:19Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > A definition that contrasts a city with a town or hamlet seems pretty useless in this case, though, since I severely doubt there was any distinction made at that time. Since there were no cities, it wasn’t a distinction they were in any position to make. But I’m confident the inhabitants of the first real cities like Uruk and Eridu did make the distinction. They knew which places had ziggurats and palaces, and which didn’t. > [@](#): > > What I was more uncertain about was whether there exists some minimum size, or if “lots of people” is a relative term, since lots of people in the Ice Age is not necessarily a large number to us. It’s \*always \*relative, but “tens of thousands” would be a good working standard anyway. Uruk would have had 50,000 people at its height. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/56 "2018-08-31T15:09:10Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Thank you for explaining terms as used by scientists. > > Is agriculture considered a necessary condition for a settlement? No - you can look at Pacific North West American natives (people like the Haida, Tlingit, Coastal Salish etc.) to see settlements that didn’t have agriculture. Also the [Natufian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture)settlements (including early Jericho). > [@](#): > > Does permanence refer to year-round habitation or to immobility of the shelter, or both? If there’s a migration cycle that returns to the same locales, that would be only semi-permanent habitation, but still considered a settlement. But permanence requires year-round habitation, or close to it. At least, that’s what I was taught. > [@](#): > > For example, if people live in the same tent at the same location for many years, is that a permanent habitat? Yes. > [@](#): > > Or, if people live in a stone hut for three weeks each year but elsewhere the rest of time, is that a permanent habitat? No. If the “elsewhere” is one place where they spend all the rest of their time, \*that \*place would be permanent, 49 weeks is plenty, IMO. But in e.g. [Alpine transhumanance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_transhumance), the pasture dwellings aren’t considered permanent dwellings, but the village bases are. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/57 "2018-08-31T16:50:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve already dealt with why this is such an ignorant assumption. If that’s what the “Göbekli Tepe changes everything” argument is based on, it’s based on a provably invalid assumption. > > I’m afraid science doesn’t - or better, shouldn’t - work that way. > Only an archaeological ignoramus would think HGs couldn’t build permanent settlements. I’ve already cited 3 such cultures in this thread. > > Once again, let me state that I find Göbekli Tepe fascinating, and I do think it has a lot to teach us. But I find the argument that it’s a “total upset of everything we know” is based on utter ignorance of other complex HG cultures, and I have no respect for that. Ok, on one hand we have [Ian Hodder | Department of Anthropology](https://anthropology.stanford.edu/people/ian-hodder) \*Ian Hodder Professor Dunlevie Family Professor in the School of Humanities and Sciences Ph.D. Cambridge, 1974 Among his publications are: Symbols in Action (Cambridge 1982), Reading the Past (Cambridge 1986), The Domestication of Europe (Oxford 1990), The Archaeological Process (Oxford 1999). Catalhoyuk: The Leopard’s Tale (Thames and Hudson 2006), and Entangled. An archaeology of the relationhips between humans and things (Wiley and Blackwell, 2012). Professor Hodder has been conducting the excavation of the 9,000 year-old Neolithic site of Catalhoyuk in central Turkey since 1993. \* A **Stanford Professor, PhD from Cambridge** , with at least four major books published in the field, who has been actually out there digging in Turkey for 15 years. Vs- **Some poster on a message board** who calls the professor & his ideas: "_ignorant assumption… invalid assumption…archaeological ignoramus…utter ignorance of other complex HG cultures"_ :rolleyes: all without a single cite. Tell me Mr Dibble, what University are you a professor of archeology at? How many works published? How many years spent digging in that area? Who to believe, who to believe… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/58 "2018-08-31T17:04:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are we \*really \*playing this fucking stupid game? What definition of “definition” are \*you \*using? And of “we”? And “using”? Where’s “here”? :rolleyes: **Moderator Note** This is GQ. Dial it back. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/59 "2018-08-31T17:08:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > For one thing, there’s absolutely no sign anyone permanently lived at Göbekli Tepe - no hearths, no houses, no burials. It’s \*not \*a settlement. Really? with only 5% of the area excavated, you can make this determination? Wow, why should they even bother to do any more digging? It’s true, as of this point, there’s none of the classic signs of full time settlement, as per Schmidt "\*Schmidt’s team, however, found none of the telltale signs of a settlement: no cooking hearths, houses or trash pits, and none of the clay fertility figurines that litter nearby sites of about the same age. \* Read more: [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/#ypKCK6fuHR0GsLvY.99](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/#ypKCK6fuHR0GsLvY.99) But you already dismissed this man and Professor Hodders as\* “Ignorant assumption… invalid assumption…archaeological ignoramus…utter ignorance of other complex HG cultures”\* so why rely upon other conclusions they made? Sure, from the evidence so far, it doesn’t appear to be a 'city", the people apparently lived nearby in villages and also came for long distance to perhaps worship. But with only 5% excavated it is perhaps too early to make sweeping conclusions that no one lived there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/60 "2018-08-31T17:22:11Z")
More cites: > **[The role of cult and feasting in the emergence of Neolithic communities. New...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/role-of-cult-and-feasting-in-the-emergence-of-neolithic-communities-new-evidence-from-gobekli-tepe-southeastern-turkey/A1AA4FB20657599F859860D94CCD090E)** > > The role of cult and feasting in the emergence of Neolithic communities. New evidence from Göbekli Tepe, south-eastern Turkey - Volume 86 Issue 333 _Göbekli Tepe is one of the most important archaeological discoveries of modern times, pushing back the origins of monumentality beyond the emergence of agriculture. We are pleased to present a summary of work in progress by the excavators of this remarkable site and their latest thoughts about its role and meaning. At the dawn of the Neolithic, hunter-gatherers congregating at Göbekli Tepe created social and ideological cohesion through the carving of decorated pillars, dancing, feasting—and, almost certainly, the drinking of beer made from fermented wild crops._ [https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/661207](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/661207) _Archaeologists have proposed that quite a number of structures dating to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A and B in southwest Asia were nondomestic ritual buildings, sometimes described specifically as temples or shrines, and these figure large in some interpretations of social change in the Near Eastern Neolithic. Yet the evidence supporting the identification of cult buildings is often equivocal or depends on ethnocentric distinctions between sacred and profane spaces. This paper explores the case of Göbekli Tepe, a large Pre-Pottery Neolithic site in Turkey that its excavator claims consisted only of temples, to illustrate weaknesses in some kinds of claims about Neolithic sacred spaces and to explore some of the problems of identifying prehistoric ritual. Consideration of the evidence suggests the alternative hypothesis that the buildings at Göbekli Tepe may actually be houses, albeit ones that are rich in symbolic content._ **the buildings at Göbekli Tepe may actually be houses,** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=4)