# Gobekli Tepe: What do we really know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508 "2018-08-30T06:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/101 "2018-09-03T13:48:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How about gold? Gold doesnt break down. > > Now assuming a society 10,000 years ago would value it as much as we do now, wouldnt there be these rooms filled with gold laying somewhere? Evidence of an ancient bank or gold depository? > > How about gold jewelry? Thus far the oldest gold artifacts found are only about 6000 years old. There is no reason to assume an older society put gold to use this early when from what we know so far, they had just started using copper. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/102 "2018-09-03T13:52:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, [that’s been discussed here before](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20374601&postcount=42). Oh, OK. I never heard of it until yesterday and it looked legit enough to bring up in the thread. It is fair to assume that some of the earliest settlements are beneath the sea now as waters did rise with the thawing of the ice age. A town of stone does not seem far fetch knowing the Gobekli Tepe exists. If not Gulf of Cambay perhaps we’ll find another eventually. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/103 "2018-09-03T14:01:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > It is fair to assume that some of the earliest settlements are beneath the sea now as waters did rise with the thawing of the ice age. Sure. Doubtless there’s some under the Black Sea, for example. But the Indians weren’t just claiming a settlement, and they were doing it with _very_ flimsy evidence. And as soon as [Hancock’s involved](https://grahamhancock.com/archive-cambay3/) you should just know it’s going to be [a crock of shit](http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=148). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/104 "2018-09-03T17:59:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Except, of course, you have yet to show how either of my two points are wrong… > > Nevertheless, facts are facts. > > This “guy on the internet” has a \*fact \*: there have been hunter-gatherers who lived in sedentary societies more complex than simple roving bands, whose existence and form of society have been known by archaeologists and anthropologists for far longer than GT has been excavated. > > Your “degreed professional” (and Schmidt) exhibited no knowledge of this form of HG, and _according to your own cites_ have formed \*opinions \*based on that ignorance. > > Prove either of those wrong, and you can say “no, they didn’t”. Just repeating “layman. layman” isn’t proving anything. Your little fact is very nice and all, but it doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t disprove the statements made by experts. Yes, he didn’t talk about them, but we only had a brief snippet of his opinion. Have you read his books? Read Schmidt’s full papers? No. So, your little fact is meaningless. We have seen this time and time again with global warming deniers and evolution deniers- they get ahold of a little “fact”- and then since they didnt see that little fact considered in a summation, they say that the entire science is based on ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/105 "2018-09-03T18:37:22Z")
Who is saying the entire science is based on ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/106 "2018-09-03T19:56:23Z")
Certainly not me. I’m only saying one _interpretive opinion_ as to _how much_ of a gamechanger GT really is, is based on clear ignorance of already-studied HG societal complexity, _as expressed in their own words_. Everything else about the research is great, and I have no quibble with the science at all. GT is a great site, and fascinating, and the people there are doing wonderful work to push the boundaries of knowledge. How **DrDeth** gets AGW and evolution denialism from \*that \*… well, I have no idea how that comparison stands. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/107 "2018-09-03T20:06:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Certainly not me. I’m only saying one _interpretive opinion_ as to _how much_ of a gamechanger GT really is, is based on clear ignorance of already-studied HG societal complexity, _as expressed in their own words_. Everything else about the research is great, and I have no quibble with the science at all. GT is a great site, and fascinating, and the people there are doing wonderful work to push the boundaries of knowledge. Three cites. Not one. And none of those are based on “ignorance”. They know much more than you do about the subject. Just because you haven’t bothered to read the full reports or the books, doesnt mean they left out a extremely minor detail in their reasoning. Calling the experts “ignorant” just because in their \*synopsis \* they left out something minor is the very definition of hubris. This is exactly like a Climate Change denier saying that they left out the fact that Water vapor is the biggest cause of global warming, thus all the global warming experts are ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/108 "2018-09-03T20:09:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Your little fact is very nice and all, but it doesn’t mean anything. So, that’s an admission you can’t disprove it, then, I take it? > [@](#): > > It doesn’t disprove the statements made by experts. Yes, it does > [@](#): > > Yes, he didn’t talk about them, but we only had a brief snippet of his opinion. One snippet that displays ignorance of complex HG cultures. Charitably, it’s entirely possible he _was_ aware, but downplayed that in order to build up GT. I guess it would then be trivial for you to provide a cite as to that, right…? > [@](#): > > Have you read his books? Did you? I mean, I’m going by the things _you’ve_ cited here. > [@](#): > > Read Schmidt’s full papers? No. Not so fast with the “No”, there. Yes, I have read at least 4 papers by Schmidt. How many have \*you \*read? > [@](#): > > So, your little fact is meaningless. Well, if you rate opinions over facts… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/109 "2018-09-03T20:13:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, that’s an admission you can’t disprove it, then, I take it?Yes, it doesOne snippet that displays ignorance of complex HG cultures. > > Charitably, it’s entirely possible he _was_ aware, but downplayed that in order to build up GT. I guess it would then be trivial for you to provide a cite as to that, right…? Did you? I mean, I’m going by the things _you’ve_ cited here. > Not so fast with the “No”, there. Yes, I have read at least 4 papers by Schmidt. How many have \*you \*read? > > Well, if you rate opinions over facts… No, nor can I disprove that water vapor is a major cause of global warming. But the big point is, the one you refuse to understand is- who cares? The experts have already considered that and wrote it off. I did- three cites. How many by Doctor Hodder ? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/110 "2018-09-03T20:15:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Three cites. 3 cites, one opinion, same ignorance of HG complexity on display. > [@](#): > > They know much more than you do about the subject. So quote them on it > [@](#): > > Just because you haven’t bothered to read the full reports or the books So quote them on it > [@](#): > > , doesnt mean they left out a extremely minor detail in their reasoning. So quote them on it. An I love how you’re even more of a layperson than me, but you certainly feel qualified to judge what is and isn’t an “extremely minor detail” > [@](#): > > Calling the experts “ignorant” just because in their \*synopsis \* they left out something minor is the very definition of hubris. I’m calling them ignorant _of this one thing_ because they’d evidenced \*ignorance \*of this one thing by their own statements. > [@](#): > > This is exactly like a Climate Change denier saying that they left out the fact that Water vapor is the biggest cause of global warming, thus all the global warming experts are ignorant. :rolleyes: The comparison doesn’t sound any more convincing the more you repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/111 "2018-09-03T20:27:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No Well, then, you’re not really making a scientific argument, then, are you? I’ve raised 2 facts, you admit you can’t disprove them, what does that leave you, exactly? > [@](#): > > But the big point is, the one you refuse to understand is- who cares? Well, \*you \*certainly seem invested. > [@](#): > > I did- three cites. Sorry, I don’t understand what this is a reply to - are you saying you cited 3 Schmidt papers? All I’ve seen you cite are 1 full paper, and some popular journal articles > [@](#): > > How many by Doctor Hodder ? You first… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/112 "2018-09-03T20:32:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, then, you’re not really making a scientific argument, then, are you? I’ve raised 2 facts, you admit you can’t disprove them, what does that leave you, exactly? As I have said many time shere- this is GQ. _ **I** _ am not making an argument at all. I am posting CITES from recognized experts in the field. Your 'facts" are of no consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/113 "2018-09-03T20:37:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Your 'facts" are of no consequence. This may be my favorite post on this message board. Should have an exclamation point though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/114 "2018-09-03T20:38:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As I have said many time shere- this is GQ. _ **I** _ am not making an argument at all. I am posting CITES from recognized experts in the field. No, that really \*is \*you making an argument. Hodder and Schmidt aren’t posting their _opinions_ here, you are. But then, you’ve already admitted you can’t disprove the _facts_. > [@](#): > > Your 'facts" are of no consequence. If they were of \*no \*consequence, you’d be able to disprove them. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/115 "2018-09-03T22:03:39Z")
Ironically, it was the OP who was worried about appearing as a ‘dingle dongle’ for asking sensible questions about Gobekli Tepe. I think he/she is well back in the queue for that fate. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/116 "2018-09-03T22:08:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As I have said many time shere- this is GQ. _ **I** _ am not making an argument at all. I am posting CITES from recognized experts in the field. > > Your 'facts" are of no consequence. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that really \*is \*you making an argument. Hodder and Schmidt aren’t posting their _opinions_ here, you are. But then, you’ve already admitted you can’t disprove the _facts_. > If they were of \*no \*consequence, you’d be able to disprove them. **Moderating** At this point, you guys are just going around in circles. Let’s drop the hijack. If you want to debate this issue, open another thread in Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/117 "2018-09-04T04:53:48Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Ironically, it was the OP who was worried about appearing as a ‘dingle dongle’ for asking sensible questions about Gobekli Tepe. The OP did ask a couple of sensible questions The OP also linked to a Graham Hancock-related absolute \*kook \*video (I bit the bullet and started watching - I think I made it 30 seconds. Then I checked his references). So let’s say that’s a draw on the sensible front. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/118 "2018-09-04T11:25:33Z")
And what about Antarctica? IF, and I mean IF, the world tilted a different way then Antarctica wouldn’t be covered in ice like today and could have been a much different continent and could very well have some ancient cities on it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/119 "2018-09-04T11:40:36Z")
Ah yes, when the Eocene–Oligocene extinction event wiped out the sparnotheriodontid litoptern civilization of olde. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508/120 "2018-09-04T11:52:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And what about Antarctica? _What about_ Antarctica? Actually, once again, Graham Hancock[has got it covered](http://www.badarchaeology.com/lost-civilisations/graham-hancocks-lost-civilisation/hancocks-antarctica/). Shocking, I know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gobekli-tepe-what-do-we-really-know/820508.md?page=7)