# God and Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654 "2013-08-19T19:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/41 "2013-08-21T20:34:07Z")
Well, it might only be an artificially intelligent mouse. Or cat. Or horse. The earliest AIs won’t be “persons” but sims of less complicated minds. Serious question: have they managed yet to do a full AI sim of, say, a grasshopper? Only a million neurons… Ought to be within the reach of modern computing? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/42 "2013-08-21T20:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Serious question: have they managed yet to do a full AI sim of, say, a grasshopper? Only a million neurons… Ought to be within the reach of modern computing? Not that I know of, but check out Elephants Don’t Play Chess – they have simulated some bugs, but using a completely different architecture than neural modelling. I’m far too tired to really accurately and substantially explain it right now, but it’s a lot like modelling a creature in terms of hierarchical muscle memory. That is, a system makes adjustments from the bottom up. Rather than thinking about what action to take and sending signals to the muscles, it reacts and then asks its higher ups if there’s anything else it should do. It seemed to have fairly decent success, but I don’t know how much research has been done in the same spirit since that paper. I believe they at least managed to get a cute little robot to walk over rocks and small obstacles with it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/43 "2013-08-21T21:18:40Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Mind. > Ingredients: Self-awareness. Memory. Comprehension. Sodium Benzoate added as a preservative. > > A mind is not a soul. We can identify and observe the presence and behavior of a mind. A soul is expectedly more elusive. Here’s my question (has it already been asked?) If we develop Artificial Intelligence and it becomes self-aware, does that constitute a mind, and will that be a person? How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/44 "2013-08-21T21:25:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. Or perhaps there is a [better explanation](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130814-near-death-brain-life-after-death-bright-light/). ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/45 "2013-08-22T00:43:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Or perhaps there is a [better explanation](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130814-near-death-brain-life-after-death-bright-light/). It is no explanation at all. They admit there is no data on experiencers talking to deceased relatives. They also say the brain is active for only 30 seconds after heart stoppage. Most doctors believe this time is 10-15 seconds, but it doesn’t matter.Some experiences have gone for hours or even days. In Pam Reynolds surgery she was clinically dead for one hour yet knew all the events that happened around her during that time. There is solid scientific evidence that the “mind” or “spirit” continues to live after the heart and brain have stopped functioning. Scientists are studying these experiences and more are becoming convinced of the separation of mind and body. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/46 "2013-08-22T06:20:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We can’t taste minds because eating brains is typically frowned upon; but if you did, you’d be tasting a mind. I think that’s a bit like saying that I’ve tasted _flight_, because I ate a bird. In truth, I tasted bird. Mind is a function - like flight, or speed, or rotation - it cant be tasted. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/47 "2013-08-22T06:21:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/48 "2013-08-22T06:28:48Z")
And there goes the thread. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/49 "2013-08-22T10:44:21Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Cite? If you are interested. > **[Near Death Experiences, Real Glimpses of Afterlife - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](https://aleroy.com/blog/archives/3370)** > > The Jury is in. After more than 35 years of research by top scientists, the studies all point to consciousness living beyond the death of the brain and body. Incredible as it may sound, we now have solid evidence of an afterlife. % ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/50 "2013-08-22T10:45:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > And there goes the thread. I assumed this was a debating thread and opposing sides would be allowed, but if they are not allowed then I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/51 "2013-08-22T11:15:19Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t think so, unless you can taste energy. We are teaching our youth that they are no more than the workings of their brain. That the brain somehow creates the “mind.” What this teaching does is eliminate all reasons for living a good responsible life. After all why bother with creating anything if you will not survive to enjoy it. It leaves no hope for the future no faith in anything. Suicides are up depression and mental problems are up where do we go from here. > > I am glad to know I am more than a brain. What a load of rubbish. I’d really love to see a cite, but I know you can’t deliver one. Have you considered that if you don’t think reality is enough for you, it’s your outlook that’s wrong? I don’t know if you’re religious, but this reminds me of the religious people who say if there isn’t a god there’s no reason for them to be good to anyone - they may as well steal, rape and kill. That’s pretty fucked up. > [@lekatt](#): > > How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. No they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/52 "2013-08-22T11:33:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is no explanation at all. They admit there is no data on experiencers talking to deceased relatives. They also say the brain is active for only 30 seconds after heart stoppage. Most doctors believe this time is 10-15 seconds, but it doesn’t matter.Some experiences have gone for hours or even days. In Pam Reynolds surgery she was clinically dead for one hour yet knew all the events that happened around her during that time. There is solid scientific evidence that the “mind” or “spirit” continues to live after the heart and brain have stopped functioning. Scientists are studying these experiences and more are becoming convinced of the separation of mind and body. What if you’re wrong, **lekatt**? What if everything, despite your obviously heartfelt convictions about god and the afterlife, turns out to be false? You like to use the phrase, “there is nothing to fear” to goad people. So what about it, **lekatt**? What is there to fear if everything you believe to be right turns out to be absolutely wrong and life is all there is for the living and death is simply eternal non-existance and unawareness. Is that something you fear? If so, why? Would you live your life differently knowing that there is no “after”? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/53 "2013-08-22T11:38:53Z")
It seems to me that when what you think is a starter turns out to be the main course, it becomes more valuable, not less. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/54 "2013-08-22T11:45:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, of the hundreds of people I know, not one has ever been spoken to by God. Not in any way a representative sample of the population, but indicative. > > You softened the claim from “hearing the voice” to “having a subjective impression.” That’s a lot easier to establish…but also a lot more susceptible to false positives. (Heck, I have a subjective impression of Huckleberry Finn, just from reading the book.) I’ve been out in the lonely piney woods and felt like someone was watching me – but that isn’t really useful evidence that anyone actually was. It’s a feeling that sort of goes with the territory. > > I agree that “worth” is subjective. In objective terms, I’d put it in the frame of information theory. Has God ever told anyone something that they could not already have known, and which turned out to be real? > > (This is why I respect the notion of online Premonition Clearing Houses. If you suddenly get a feeling that “…A big passenger plane is going to crash in Cleveland tomorrow” and you register that with a valid date-stamp, and then, the next day, it actually happens, well, that’s a hell of a lot more valid than you claiming, a week later, “I knew it was going to happen the day before.” Maybe, but with an objective record, the obvious objections are eliminated.) Impressions or thoughts of what can happen are not necessarily from God; many years ago on the news there was a story about a woman who dreamed that her husband was killed in a plane crash, so because of her concern to calm her down the man stayed home, the plane he would be on didn’t crash as she thought, but her husband that stayed at home, was on their porch in a porch swing, it seems he touched the wall a little with each movement, there was a flower pot on a shelf above him, it fell on his head and he was killed! A coincidence, but her dream was wrong! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/55 "2013-08-22T11:52:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. Does that mean the expression of;’ You are out of your mind" valid? Animals have what could be called mind, they can understand human commands, and I have seen a dog act ashamed, afraid, etc. as well as other animals! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/56 "2013-08-22T12:01:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I assumed this was a debating thread and opposing sides would be allowed, but if they are not allowed then I was wrong. Sure, it’s a debate, but it looks to me like you’re debating a different topic - which just happens to be your favourite one - the debating of which has never once gone well in the past. Hence: “There goes the thread”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/57 "2013-08-22T12:03:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is no explanation at all. They admit there is no data on experiencers talking to deceased relatives. They also say the brain is active for only 30 seconds after heart stoppage. Most doctors believe this time is 10-15 seconds, but it doesn’t matter.Some experiences have gone for hours or even days. In Pam Reynolds surgery she was clinically dead for one hour yet knew all the events that happened around her during that time. There is solid scientific evidence that the “mind” or “spirit” continues to live after the heart and brain have stopped functioning. Scientists are studying these experiences and more are becoming convinced of the separation of mind and body. I once had to be resuscitated my heart stopped, but I had no idea of it nor did I know about it until I came to, and they told me to call my heart doctor right away! As long as there is any brain wave the person is near death but not dead. If one flat lines and can’t be resuscitated then they are called dead. Clinically she was not dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/58 "2013-08-22T13:14:05Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I once had to be resuscitated my heart stopped, but I had no idea of it nor did I know about it until I came to, and they told me to call my heart doctor right away! > > As long as there is any brain wave the person is near death but not dead. If one flat lines and can’t be resuscitated then they are called dead. Clinically she was not dead. That’s not exactly right. “Clinical death” occurs when the heart stops, so you and many other people were clinically dead but are still alive now. I agree with your overall point that the brain is still working in some way at this point. There is plenty of evidence that “near-death experiences” are created by the brain. Is it really a surprise that a dying brain behaves strangely? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/59 "2013-08-22T13:52:08Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > What a load of rubbish. I’d really love to see a cite, but I know you can’t deliver one. > > Have you considered that if you don’t think reality is enough for you, it’s your outlook that’s wrong? > > I don’t know if you’re religious, but this reminds me of the religious people who say if there isn’t a god there’s no reason for them to be good to anyone - they may as well steal, rape and kill. That’s pretty fucked up. > > No they haven’t. I have provided a link to the research that shows the mind is separate from the body if you care to read about it. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/60 "2013-08-22T14:00:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have provided a link to the research that shows the mind is separate from the body if you care to read about it. You provided a very web page that you wrote that says ‘Well these people say it happened, so that’s good enough for me.’ No actual evidence. None. We have boatloads of data that says the brain creates the mind. Just because you can point to one thing and say ‘you cant explain that’ doesn’t mean you get to provide the explanation. You wanna prove that the mind is separate from the body, then you actually have to give evidence for this assertion. Yours is not the default explanation for something you don’t understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=4)