# God and Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654 "2013-08-19T19:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/61 "2013-08-22T14:01:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What if you’re wrong, **lekatt**? > > What if everything, despite your obviously heartfelt convictions about god and the afterlife, turns out to be false? > > You like to use the phrase, “there is nothing to fear” to goad people. So what about it, **lekatt**? What is there to fear if everything you believe to be right turns out to be absolutely wrong and life is all there is for the living and death is simply eternal non-existance and unawareness. > > Is that something you fear? If so, why? Would you live your life differently knowing that there is no “after”? You make an excellent point. So I will try to answer it. First there are literally millions of people who have had the same experience that believe as I do. Second I have had many experiences and communications of the same nature. I have seen what is sometimes called Heaven but is really the Spirit World. Others have also seen it and described it similarly. I have seen my body while outside of it. So I know I don’t need a brain to be alive. So have many others. I believe, rather I know because I have experienced it personally many times. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/62 "2013-08-22T14:04:11Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Does that mean the expression of;’ You are out of your mind" valid? > > Animals have what could be called mind, they can understand human commands, and I have seen a dog act ashamed, afraid, etc. as well as other animals! You are correct. Animals also have a mind which is their spirit. When they die they return to the spirit world also. There are accounts of seeing their pets during the experience. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/63 "2013-08-22T14:07:07Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Sure, it’s a debate, but it looks to me like you’re debating a different topic - which just happens to be your favourite one - the debating of which has never once gone well in the past. > > Hence: “There goes the thread”. It is not a different topic because it directly concerns the mind and God. What they are and how they work. Nothing could be more relevant. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/64 "2013-08-22T14:11:31Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I once had to be resuscitated my heart stopped, but I had no idea of it nor did I know about it until I came to, and they told me to call my heart doctor right away! > > As long as there is any brain wave the person is near death but not dead. If one flat lines and can’t be resuscitated then they are called dead. Clinically she was not dead. The AMA would consider her dead. The term near death experience is a misnomer. Better to be call a temporary dead experience. The experience usually always changes the perceptions of the experiencer. I can’t speak about your experience. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/65 "2013-08-22T14:13:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can we observe a mind? A mind is a soul, because millions of people have left their bodies and still been aware. > [@Bozuit](#): > > No they haven’t. Well, lot of people have indeed had an experience _where it seemed_ they left their body. I have had one. I do not have an explanation for the phenomenon, but making shit up about spirits and souls, just to have \*some \*kind of explanation, does not help. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/66 "2013-08-22T14:15:35Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > That’s not exactly right. “Clinical death” occurs when the heart stops, so you and many other people were clinically dead but are still alive now. > > I agree with your overall point that the brain is still working in some way at this point. There is plenty of evidence that “near-death experiences” are created by the brain. Is it really a surprise that a dying brain behaves strangely? The brain dies within 10-15 seconds after the heart stops, some say as long as 30 seconds but none of these are long enough for most NDEs. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/67 "2013-08-22T14:17:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You make an excellent point. So I will try to answer it. First there are literally millions of people who have had the same experience that believe as I do. Second I have had many experiences and communications of the same nature. I have seen what is sometimes called Heaven but is really the Spirit World. Others have also seen it and described it similarly. I have seen my body while outside of it. So I know I don’t need a brain to be alive. So have many others. I believe, rather I know because I have experienced it personally many times. I know science will never change your mind on this subject but could you comment on the recent study I linked to earlier in the thread where they do have a practical scientific explanation for your NDE’s. [http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/68 "2013-08-22T14:18:18Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > You provided a very web page that you wrote that says ‘Well these people say it happened, so that’s good enough for me.’ No actual evidence. None. > > We have boatloads of data that says the brain creates the mind. Just because you can point to one thing and say ‘you cant explain that’ doesn’t mean you get to provide the explanation. You wanna prove that the mind is separate from the body, then you actually have to give evidence for this assertion. Yours is not the default explanation for something you don’t understand. You will find the evidence not in my writing but in the research links provided at the beginning of my writing or in the books I recommended. These studies were also published in medical journals. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/69 "2013-08-22T14:21:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The brain dies within 10-15 seconds after the heart stops, some say as long as 30 seconds but none of these are long enough for most NDEs. Cite(non-anecdotal, of course) for this fact? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/70 "2013-08-22T14:30:55Z")
According to [HowStuffWorks](http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death1.htm): The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/71 "2013-08-22T14:31:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I know science will never change your mind on this subject but could you comment on the recent study I linked to earlier in the thread where they do have a practical scientific explanation for your NDE’s. > > [http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences) Yes. Lets say a violent burst of brain activity does happen in the first 30 seconds after the heart stops. Even if that were true it does not explain the typical NDE. In the typical experience the heart stops and the patient leaves his body. He observes his body from a position near the ceiling. He is very surprised. He observes the activity around the body. The doctors are frantically trying to resuscitate him. He notices a light and goes down a tunnel. Love surrounds him, unconditional love and he does not want to return to his body, but a Being of Light tells him he must return because it is not his time. He may meet deceased relatives or loves ones even his pets that went before him. But he is drawn back into his body against his will and wakes up. He tells the staff he saw them working on him and describes it accurately. He tells them he saw his dead relatives and the staff don’t believe him etc. That don’t cover the future events he sees and the knowledge he gains through the experience. Please read some of the experiences for more. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/72 "2013-08-22T14:32:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have provided a link to the research that shows the mind is separate from the body if you care to read about it. What about the rest of your claims on the breakdown of society and the creeping nihilism? > [@lekatt](#): > > The brain dies within 10-15 seconds after the heart stops, some say as long as 30 seconds but none of these are long enough for most NDEs. Brains can survive without damage for several minutes without oxygen. Even if near-death experiences appear to last longer than that, it’s quite an assumption that a dying brain is a good judge of the passage of time. > [@lekatt](#): > > You will find the evidence not in my writing but in the research links provided at the beginning of my writing or in the books I recommended. These studies were also published in medical journals. I did have a quick look, but honestly would rather you saved me the trouble of looking through all your links and researching the books you mention. Do you have any links to good papers which conclude that any of the claims you have made in this thread are true? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/73 "2013-08-22T14:34:26Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > According to [HowStuffWorks](http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death1.htm): > The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. Yep-more than enough time to dream, and when you add in time spent under anesthesia who can tell when in the process the dream occurred? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/74 "2013-08-22T14:36:40Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > According to [HowStuffWorks](http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death1.htm): > > The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. If resuscitation attempts are started immediately. Some experiencers woke up on the way to the morgue. Might be a factor for a few but not for the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/75 "2013-08-22T14:37:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes. Lets say a violent burst of brain activity does happen in the first 30 seconds after the heart stops. Even if that were true it does not explain the typical NDE. In the typical experience the heart stops and the patient leaves his body. He observes his body from a position near the ceiling. He is very surprised. He observes the activity around the body. The doctors are frantically trying to resuscitate him. He notices a light and goes down a tunnel. Love surrounds him, unconditional love and he does not want to return to his body, but a Being of Light tells him he must return because it is not his time. He may meet deceased relatives or loves ones even his pets that went before him. But he is drawn back into his body against his will and wakes up. He tells the staff he saw them working on him and describes it accurately. He tells them he saw his dead relatives and the staff don’t believe him etc. That don’t cover the future events he sees and the knowledge he gains through the experience. Please read some of the experiences for more. Definitely not a typical NDE. Please cite just _one_ case where everything that you described happened, including the “future events” hokum. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/76 "2013-08-22T14:39:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If resuscitation attempts are started immediately. Some experiencers woke up on the way to the morgue. Might be a factor for a few but not for the majority. Once again, where did you get the “10 to 15 seconds” fact? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/77 "2013-08-22T14:41:00Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > What about the rest of your claims on the breakdown of society and the creeping nihilism? > > Brains can survive without damage for several minutes without oxygen. Even if near-death experiences appear to last longer than that, it’s quite an assumption that a dying brain is a good judge of the passage of time. > > I did have a quick look, but honestly would rather you saved me the trouble of looking through all your links and researching the books you mention. Do you have any links to good papers which conclude that any of the claims you have made in this thread are true? I wish I could provide you with a shortcut to this subject, but I don’t know of any. It took me three years to get a decent understanding of it. You might try just reading the experiences offered on the web. I have collected 300 of them and some site a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/78 "2013-08-22T14:42:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Definitely not a typical NDE. Please cite just _one_ case where everything that you described happened, including the “future events” hokum. why should I bother? You can read all you want on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/79 "2013-08-22T14:44:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I wish I could provide you with a shortcut to this subject, but I don’t know of any. It took me three years to get a decent understanding of it. You might try just reading the experiences offered on the web. I have collected 300 of them and some site a lot more. Your collection of stories from lonely anonymous people trying to make their own lives seem interesting to other lonely anonymous people is of no use to those who are searching for facts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/80 "2013-08-22T14:46:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > why should I bother? You can read all you want on the Internet. You made the claim, so why not, _just this once_, back up one of your wild stories? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=5)