# God and Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654 "2013-08-19T19:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/81 "2013-08-22T14:49:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes. Lets say a violent burst of brain activity does happen in the first 30 seconds after the heart stops. Even if that were true it does not explain the typical NDE. In the typical experience the heart stops and the patient leaves his body. He observes his body from a position near the ceiling. He is very surprised. He observes the activity around the body. The doctors are frantically trying to resuscitate him. He notices a light and goes down a tunnel. Love surrounds him, unconditional love and he does not want to return to his body, but a Being of Light tells him he must return because it is not his time. He may meet deceased relatives or loves ones even his pets that went before him. But he is drawn back into his body against his will and wakes up. He tells the staff he saw them working on him and describes it accurately. He tells them he saw his dead relatives and the staff don’t believe him etc. That don’t cover the future events he sees and the knowledge he gains through the experience. Please read some of the experiences for more. As one who has experimented with the dissociative class of hallucinogens I can tell you that many of these dissociative “experiences” can be duplicated with Salvia Divinorum, legally if not exactly safely most places in this country. And the actual research does explain the light and comfort feeling quite well. But I would enjoy any real evidence that consciousness is anywhere outside of the physical mind. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/82 "2013-08-22T16:17:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As one who has experimented with the dissociative class of hallucinogens I can tell you that many of these dissociative “experiences” can be duplicated with Salvia Divinorum, legally if not exactly safely most places in this country. And the actual research does explain the light and comfort feeling quite well. But I would enjoy any real evidence that consciousness is anywhere outside of the physical mind. OK. I wrote this explanation a few years ago but it is still relevant to the subject of drugs and NDEs. "Picture yourself standing on the edge of two dimensions. One spiritual and the other physical. If you look outward from your physical body (which is only a communication tool) you will focus in the physical dimension. If you look inward through the physical body you will focus in the spiritual dimension. Christians will remember reading when Jesus was asked where the Kingdom of God was, He replied: “The Kingdom of God is within you”. Unfortunately, many are focused so intensely in the physical that they no longer feel or believe in the spiritual. However, when the physical body malfunctions or dies, the focus returns to the spiritual dimension which is home. "If you direct your point of consciousness inward and hold it there. After a time, the physical world will begin to fade, dimmer and dimmer. Eventually you will see the light and feel the love that NDEers do. You may also meet deceased friends and experience other NDE-like events. You will have entered the fringe of the spiritual dimension. This process, I have described, is called meditation. Meditation is the safest, most reliable way to visit the spiritual dimension, and there are many, many varieties of it. If you read the literature on meditation you will find an abundance of NDE-like events mentioned. In fact, some Yogi masters warn their students to ignore the lights, and things they may see because they believe it is a distraction from the purity of the meditation. "However, meditation has one very large drawback. It may take many months, even years of daily practice to learn how to lower the physical senses (focus) to the degree necessary to experience the spiritual dimension. And, for one reason or another, some practitioners are never able to reach the spiritual. So, over the centuries, man has devised, invented and discovered shortcut methods. “These methods included anything that could diminish, or fade the physical senses. Sweatlodges, dancing in circles for hours, staring into crystal balls, watching pendulums swing, and of course a wide assortment of drugs. Peyote, loco weed, hash, opium, and now Ketamine. The drug Ketamine, along with numerous others, diminishes, lowers the physical senses (focus) of man and allows the spiritual dimension to be experienced. The real NDE is caused by the death of the body which temporarily cancels ALL physical focus, thereby producing the intense spiritual experience that it is. A severe warning about drugs is needed here. The use of drugs to enter the world of spirit can be very dangerous for those who are unprepared emotionally for the trip. The results can be disasterous to the personality of the individual.” In summary: the world of spirit is alive and well. The drug Ketamine, and any others that may be developed in the future, only allows the spiritual experience, and does not cause it. The Near Death Experience is very real, and is, exactly what it appears to be: man encountering his Creator at the time of his physical death. The NDE is a wake-up call. It is time to return to our roots of Love, and Compassion for ourselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/83 "2013-08-22T16:28:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > OK. I wrote this explanation a few years ago but it is still relevant to the subject of drugs and NDEs. > > "Picture yourself standing on the edge of two dimensions. One spiritual and the other physical. If you look outward from your physical body (which is only a communication tool) you will focus in the physical dimension. If you look inward through the physical body you will focus in the spiritual dimension. Christians will remember reading when Jesus was asked where the Kingdom of God was, He replied: “The Kingdom of God is within you”. Unfortunately, many are focused so intensely in the physical that they no longer feel or believe in the spiritual. However, when the physical body malfunctions or dies, the focus returns to the spiritual dimension which is home. Now contrast that experience with this one: “Picture yourself in a boat on a river, with tangerine trees and marmalade skies. Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly- A girl with kaleidoscope eyes. Cellophane flowers of yellow and green towering over your head. Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes…and she’s gone.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/84 "2013-08-22T17:37:26Z")
Yep…the non-answer I was expecting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/85 "2013-08-22T17:48:21Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yep…the non-answer I was expecting. You were expecting maybe “Yellow Submarine”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/86 "2013-08-22T18:30:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You were expecting maybe “Yellow Submarine”? 😃 I would have accepted “snugglefarfegnoodle” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/87 "2013-08-22T19:33:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > … > > In summary: the world of spirit is alive and well. The drug Ketamine, and any others that may be developed in the future, only allows the spiritual experience, and does not cause it. The Near Death Experience is very real, and is, exactly what it appears to be: man encountering his Creator at the time of his physical death. The NDE is a wake-up call. It is time to return to our roots of Love, and Compassion for ourselves and others. Here are the FACTS about Ketamine: > [@](#): > > Ketamine is a disassociative anaesthetic, that has a combination of stimulant, depressant,\*\* hallucinogenic\*\*, and analgesic properties > > Ketamine works by separating the brain’s thalamo-neocortical and limbic systems, essentially blocking the mind from receiving sensory input. Perception increases to fill the gap vacated by the senses and **gives rise to powerful hallucinations**. > > Ketamine has useful medical applications. It is a commonly used anaesthetic agent both inside and outside of the operating theatre and is included on the World Health Organisations List of Essential Medicines. It would behoove you to do even the tiniest bit of due diligence in researching things before you spout none-sense as facts. As a side note, Ketamine would explain much of your “experiences”. You should consider getting help in kicking the habit before it kills you. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/88 "2013-08-22T21:21:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Here are the FACTS about Ketamine: > > It would behoove you to do even the tiniest bit of due diligence in researching things before you spout none-sense as facts. > > As a side note, Ketamine would explain much of your “experiences”. You should consider getting help in kicking the habit before it kills you. If you would read my previous post it would tell you why Ketamine works the way it does. Karl L. R. Jansen, M.D., Ph.D. is a Member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is the world’s leading expert on ketamine. Jansen asked me to review the part of his book on NDEs and Ketamine. I am well aware of what Ketamine is and what it does. It does not produce a typical NDE. Jansen was not pleased with my review. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/89 "2013-08-22T21:27:41Z")
What are your qualifications with respect to pharmacology, biochemistry, clinical drug trials, medicine, other sciences? On what professional basis did you draw your conclusions? ETA: You don’t need to answer. I don’t want to contribute to dragging this OP off topic. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/90 "2013-08-22T21:44:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you would read my previous post it would tell you why Ketamine works the way it does. Karl L. R. Jansen, M.D., Ph.D. is a Member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is the world’s leading expert on ketamine. Jansen asked me to review the part of his book on NDEs and Ketamine. I am well aware of what Ketamine is and what it does. It does not produce a typical NDE. **Jansen was not pleased with my review**. This should give you a clue - ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/91 "2013-08-22T21:47:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you would read my previous post it would tell you why Ketamine works the way it does. Karl L. R. Jansen, M.D., Ph.D. is a Member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is the world’s leading expert on ketamine. Jansen asked me to review the part of his book on NDEs and Ketamine. I am well aware of what Ketamine is and what it does. It does not produce a typical NDE. Jansen was not pleased with my review. I’ll just add this one to an already long list, and go on. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/92 "2013-08-23T13:19:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You make an excellent point. So I will try to answer it. First there are literally millions of people who have had the same experience that believe as I do. Second I have had many experiences and communications of the same nature. I have seen what is sometimes called Heaven but is really the Spirit World. Others have also seen it and described it similarly. I have seen my body while outside of it. So I know I don’t need a brain to be alive. So have many others. I believe, rather I know because I have experienced it personally many times. That was9I believe) like a dream, Created by your own mind, I have had people who study this say, People who believe in the spirit world or desire it can have halucinations just as some drugs, or even lack of water, or food can produce figments of one’s imagination! An unbeliever who doesn’t see anything after death is because their mind doesn’t need or consider an after life. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/93 "2013-08-23T14:29:23Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That was9I believe) like a dream, Created by your own mind, I have had people who study this say, People who believe in the spirit world or desire it can have halucinations just as some drugs, or even lack of water, or food can produce figments of one’s imagination! An unbeliever who doesn’t see anything after death is because their mind doesn’t need or consider an after life. These experiences are more real than normal experiences most will tell you. They are definitely not hallucinations because they can be verified by those present. These are called veridical NDEs. People who don’t believe in God or the afterlife will believe after these experiences. There are many examples of this change in beliefs. I am one example. I don’t want you to assume I believe in the God of the Bible. Most quit their churches after this experience. The experience is mainly unconditional love and a feeling of peace and security. But there are negative NDEs which start off scary and end up with love. It is a large field of study to learn about them because they are each unique. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/94 "2013-08-23T14:37:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These experiences are more real than normal experiences most will tell you. They are definitely not hallucinations because they can be verified by those present. The person having the hallucination is the least qualified person to say whether she/he is having one or not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/95 "2013-08-23T14:40:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These experiences are more real than normal experiences most will tell you. They are definitely not hallucinations because they can be verified by those present. These are called veridical NDEs. People who don’t believe in God or the afterlife will believe after these experiences. There are many examples of this change in beliefs. I am one example. I don’t want you to assume I believe in the God of the Bible. Most quit their churches after this experience. The experience is mainly unconditional love and a feeling of peace and security. But there are negative NDEs which start off scary and end up with love. It is a large field of study to learn about them because they are each unique. Could you please put a hold on making up “facts” that match your beliefs? You are not entitled to your own reality. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/96 "2013-08-23T15:35:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could you please put a hold on making up “facts” that match your beliefs? You are not entitled to your own reality. But he has every right to his own hallucinations. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/97 "2013-08-23T16:49:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These experiences are more real than normal experiences most will tell you. They are definitely not hallucinations because they can be verified by those present. Hallucinations are very very real to the person experiencing them…and there is NO well documented case of anyone seeing a spirit floating outside the body. And the claims of like the “shoe one on a window sill” have been debunked unless you are looking to confirm your own unsubstantiated claims. Heck, some investigators put a shoe at the claimed place at Harborview and it was so visible from inside and the street that someone had facilities remove it before the researchers could claim it. I know at that very same hospital there are hidden objects on top of some high points in the ER as a test…no NDE has ever seen one of those items that would be shocking and quite memorable. So as the cites I provided earlier in the thread demonstrated and were not challenged…the mind is well…all in the mind (the physical one). ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/98 "2013-08-23T18:59:52Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Hallucinations are very very real to the person experiencing them…and there is NO well documented case of anyone seeing a spirit floating outside the body. And the claims of like the “shoe one on a window sill” have been debunked unless you are looking to confirm your own unsubstantiated claims. Heck, some investigators put a shoe at the claimed place at Harborview and it was so visible from inside and the street that someone had facilities remove it before the researchers could claim it. > > I know at that very same hospital there are hidden objects on top of some high points in the ER as a test…no NDE has ever seen one of those items that would be shocking and quite memorable. > > So as the cites I provided earlier in the thread demonstrated and were not challenged…the mind is well…all in the mind (the physical one). > **[Question 28 about Near Death Experiences.](https://aleroy.com/FAQz28.htm)** > > Question 28 about Near Death Experiences. In this link are other links that will give you a better look at the experience from the researchers work. What you said about the shoe is not correct, and experiencers have seen and reported on such objects place near the ceilings. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/99 "2013-08-24T12:47:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These experiences are more real than normal experiences most will tell you. They are definitely not hallucinations because they can be verified by those present. These are called veridical NDEs. People who don’t believe in God or the afterlife will believe after these experiences. There are many examples of this change in beliefs. I am one example. I don’t want you to assume I believe in the God of the Bible. Most quit their churches after this experience. The experience is mainly unconditional love and a feeling of peace and security. But there are negative NDEs which start off scary and end up with love. It is a large field of study to learn about them because they are each unique. There a big difference between death and near death. There are people who are not Christians who God supposedly had God tell them something, but the mind is very strange and desire can also play a part in their beliefs which can come as a dream. I have had strange things happen to me when the medication was wearing off, If I closed my mind I would see beautiful scenes, when I would open them I didn’t see them, The doctor explained how drugs can affect the mind, and they have also found that people who fast too much like some of the early saints had visions because of lack of nutrients can affect the mind. Once when I had my second child I thought I had died because I didn’t think I was yet under the drug they gave me, The doctor said I was not anywhere near death, because I must have heard them talking while in a drugged state and the light I saw was most likely the light in the delivery room. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/100 "2013-08-24T16:15:34Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There a big difference between death and near death. > > There are people who are not Christians who God supposedly had God tell them something, but the mind is very strange and desire can also play a part in their beliefs which can come as a dream. > > I have had strange things happen to me when the medication was wearing off, If I closed my mind I would see beautiful scenes, when I would open them I didn’t see them, The doctor explained how drugs can affect the mind, and they have also found that people who fast too much like some of the early saints had visions because of lack of nutrients can affect the mind. > > Once when I had my second child I thought I had died because I didn’t think I was yet under the drug they gave me, The doctor said I was not anywhere near death, because I must have heard them talking while in a drugged state and the light I saw was most likely the light in the delivery room. I agree with everything you say. Please read post #82 and it will help you understand how these things happen. You don’t have to die to have a NDE type experience. But each experience is unique and needs to be considered as a unique experience. I hope the post and reading near death experiences will help you understand. It is true that people can die for a period of time and then come back to life which is what happens in classical NDEs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=6)