# God and Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654 "2013-08-19T19:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/101 "2013-08-25T12:15:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I agree with everything you say. Please read post #82 and it will help you understand how these things happen. You don’t have to die to have a NDE type experience. But each experience is unique and needs to be considered as a unique experience. I hope the post and reading near death experiences will help you understand. It is true that people can die for a period of time and then come back to life which is what happens in classical NDEs. They are not totally brain dead, then when that happen then they are dead , and cannot be resuscitated. There is a s big a gap between actual death and Near Death. Once on TV they had a Swami on a program that could put himself into a N D experience. They buried him and covered the grave with boards, dirt and sod, then a couple days later they opened the grave and he brought himself back to a conscious state. I am not sure how many years ago it was now but I would guess about 30 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/102 "2013-08-25T12:23:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You make an excellent point. So I will try to answer it. First there are literally millions of people who have had the same experience that believe as I do. Second I have had many experiences and communications of the same nature. I have seen what is sometimes called Heaven but is really the Spirit World. Others have also seen it and described it similarly. I have seen my body while outside of it. So I know I don’t need a brain to be alive. So have many others. I believe, rather I know because I have experienced it personally many times. Because some or many believe people believe as you do doesn’t make it so., there was a time when most people thought the world was flat, that didn’t make it flat! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/103 "2013-08-25T14:22:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > They are not totally brain dead, then when that happen then they are dead , and cannot be resuscitated. There is a s big a gap between actual death and Near Death. > > Once on TV they had a Swami on a program that could put himself into a N D experience. They buried him and covered the grave with boards, dirt and sod, then a couple days later they opened the grave and he brought himself back to a conscious state. I am not sure how many years ago it was now but I would guess about 30 years or so. The Swami had a heart beat the whole time and was in a deep sleep. People do die on the operating table in hospitals. Their heart stops and within 15 seconds the brain stops and they are dead until brought back to life. If no one resuscitates them they will remain dead. People do die for short periods of time. Ask a surgeon. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/104 "2013-08-25T14:24:23Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Because some or many believe people believe as you do doesn’t make it so., there was a time when most people thought the world was flat, that didn’t make it flat! It is not a question of belief it is an experience. It is a knowing. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/105 "2013-08-25T18:36:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is not a question of belief it is an experience. It is a knowing. It is “anecdotal evidence” and humans are pretty bad about figuring out what is the real cause. Note that the sample size is small and thus there is a large chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked memories. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim and it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of your claims. Note how you hand wave away evidence that doesn’t match your world view. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/106 "2013-08-25T19:44:09Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > People do die on the operating table in hospitals. Their heart stops and within 15 seconds the brain stops… I must insist that you provide us with the source of this “fact”. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/107 "2013-08-25T20:12:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is “anecdotal evidence” and humans are pretty bad about figuring out what is the real cause. Note that the sample size is small and thus there is a large chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked memories. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim and it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of your claims. > > Note how you hand wave away evidence that doesn’t match your world view. It is experiences that can and have been verified by those present. The number of experiences are in the millions in the U.S. alone. My world view is what I experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/108 "2013-08-25T20:27:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is experiences that can and have been verified by those present. The number of experiences are in the millions in the U.S. alone. My world view is what I experienced. Skipping the part where you pull numbers out of who knows where, He is the “NDE” yous supposedly experienced, in your own words: > [@lekatt](#): > > I had a bad day. I was depressed about my health, business and everything else that came to mind so I went to bed early, thinking the sleep would help me forget. I was wrong. > About 2:00 a.m. I awoke feeling very strange. I couldn’t see anything, but felt an energy or electric-like current running all through me. Also felt someone close to my right shoulder. I thought this was my wife, but soon determined the bed, with my wife in it, was far below me, and to my left. Wanting to find out who this presence was at my shoulder I tried to turn around. A voice said: “Please go back to sleep.” It was a male voice that seemed to originate within my thoughts or mind. > I wasn’t afraid, and I still wanted to know what was happening, so, I tried to turn again. The voice said: “Do you wish to continue here or would you like to go on?” After considering this question only a few seconds, I replied: “I want to continue, of course.” My reply was given as a thought. > > As soon as I had answered, the energy surrounding me began to grow in intensity. The stronger it became the more I felt loved and supported by it. I became aware of (or remembered) my spiritual nature, and also, my purpose for being here. (I felt as if I had always known these things, but had somehow forgotten them.) I further knew that all people share this love and support. That everyone is held safe and secure and loved unconditionally by the Creator. > > The intense energy lasted about 15 minutes (estimate). During this time, I felt total love, support, belonging, and an expanded knowledge of many things. I never wanted to leave this beautiful state of being; but finally the energy subsided and the voice said: “Please go back to sleep.” In the next moment, I was back in bed, with my wife next to me. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/109 "2013-08-25T20:49:22Z")
Millions of men across the country believe that any woman who is friendly to them, even if their job requires it (E.G. bartender) wants to sleep with them…Still doesn’t make it true. Also your claim about the number of people who believe it is a common logical fallacy “Argumentum ad populum” Every bit of evidence points to consciousness being tied to the physical brain. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/110 "2013-08-25T21:32:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Skipping the part where you pull numbers out of who knows where, He is the “NDE” yous supposedly experienced, in your own words: Well, that was my first experience alright. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/111 "2013-08-25T21:33:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Millions of men across the country believe that any woman who is friendly to them, even if their job requires it (E.G. bartender) wants to sleep with them…Still doesn’t make it true. Also your claim about the number of people who believe it is a common logical fallacy “Argumentum ad populum” > > Every bit of evidence points to consciousness being tied to the physical brain. If you would follow the links I provided you would see that is not true. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/112 "2013-08-25T21:54:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you would follow the links I provided you would see that is not true. I followed your links and found discredited cherry picked research. E.G. Kimberly Clark’s shoe story…which you will provide as “proof” in some other thread months down the road. > [@](#): > > As part of our investigation, Ebbern and Mulligan visited Harborview Medical Center to determine for themselves just how difficult it would be to see, from outside the hospital, a shoe on one of its third-floor window ledges. They placed a running shoe of their own at the place Clark described and then went outside to observe what was visible from ground level. They were astonished at the ease with which they could see and identify the shoe. > > Clark’s claim that the shoe would have been invisible from ground level outside the hospital is all the more incredible because the investigators’ viewpoint was considerably inferior to what Clark’s would have been seventeen years earlier. That is because, in 1994, there was new construction under way beneath the window in question and this forced Ebbern and Mulligan to view the shoe from a much greater distance than would have been necessary for Clark Let alone that the nurse hadn’t related the story until 7 years later, eye witness accounts are very error prone and after 7 years they are pretty much useless (not that they have a ton of value as “evidence” in the first place). ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/113 "2013-08-25T23:07:31Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I followed your links and found discredited cherry picked research. > > E.G. Kimberly Clark’s shoe story…which you will provide as “proof” in some other thread months down the road. > > Let alone that the nurse hadn’t related the story until 7 years later, eye witness accounts are very error prone and after 7 years they are pretty much useless (not that they have a ton of value as “evidence” in the first place). I have never read that account, but I have read accounts both verifying and debunking the original claim. I don’t really know, but I do know that this one account does not make or break the veracity of NDEs. I have provided links to the research, and explanations of them but I have not provided actual NDE accounts. The link below has some actual accounts written by the experiencer with no editing save correcting misspelled words. > **[Listings of Near Death Experiences, page one.](https://aleroy.com/board00.htm)** > > Listings of Near Death Experiences, page one ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/114 "2013-08-25T23:10:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have never read that account, but I have read accounts both verifying and debunking the original claim. I don’t really know, but I do know that this one account does not make or break the veracity of NDEs. I have provided links to the research, and explanations of them but I have not provided actual NDE accounts. The link below has some actual accounts written by the experiencer with no editing save correcting misspelled words. > > [Listings of Near Death Experiences, page one.](http://aleroy.com/board00.htm) Anonymous anecdotes are totally useless. As you’ve been told so many times before. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/115 "2013-08-25T23:20:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Anonymous anecdotes are totally useless. > As you’ve been told so many times before. Especially when they are compiled by precognition and remote viewing true believers like Charles Tart. He is well known for ignoring real observable material explanations for ones that involve woo like “psi” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/116 "2013-08-26T12:14:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I agree with everything you say. Please read post #82 and it will help you understand how these things happen. You don’t have to die to have a NDE type experience. But each experience is unique and needs to be considered as a unique experience. I hope the post and reading near death experiences will help you understand. It is true that people can die for a period of time and then come back to life which is what happens in classical NDEs. That your belief. It is true you think you died but since you are still here writing on the message board I think you are mistaken. Belief is most of the time what one wishes was true. Sort of a form of self Hypnosis. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/117 "2013-08-26T12:18:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The Swami had a heart beat the whole time and was in a deep sleep. People do die on the operating table in hospitals. Their heart stops and within 15 seconds the brain stops and they are dead until brought back to life. If no one resuscitates them they will remain dead. People do die for short periods of time. Ask a surgeon. He got his heart rate down to where it didn’t show up on the EEG. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/118 "2013-08-26T15:40:44Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > He got his heart rate down to where it didn’t show up on the EEG. His heart rate was approx. 1 beat a minute sometimes 2 and it was measured while he was underground. He had achieved a state of suspended animation. This has nothing to do with someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/119 "2013-08-26T15:44:49Z")
I want to reiterate that no one having an NDE went to a so-called hell and remained there. Some started their experience in a scary place then went into the light of love. I am not sure why this happens but it tends to happen more to clergymen than others. There is no reason to fear the afterlife in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/120 "2013-08-26T15:54:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > His heart rate was approx. 1 beat a minute sometimes 2 and it was measured while he was underground. He had achieved a state of suspended animation. This has nothing to do with someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life. I’m going to take anything you say with a pound of salt until you start coming up with cites for the “facts” you keep reciting, such as brain death usually happening within 15 seconds of heart stoppage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=7)