# God and Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654 "2013-08-19T19:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/141 "2013-08-27T20:02:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You have asked these questions many, many times, and I have answered them. You can find all the answers about my experiences on my website. Please don’t keep asking the same thing over and over. I don’t have to go to your website-I posted your experience, _in your own words_, in post #108. No mention of what almost killed you…unless it was that angel you were dreaming about. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/142 "2013-08-27T20:07:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Death experiencers know they are dead when they leave their bodies. I suggest you read some experiences, there is a link above in a previous post, that will show you the difference. There are many that experience OBE and don’t consider it a NDE. It actually has more in common with lucid dreaming. It’s ridiculous to call what you described as a near death experience; you’re over selling it. > **[out-of-body experience (OBE) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com](https://skepdic.com/obe.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/143 "2013-08-27T20:37:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > . . . Please don’t keep asking the same thing over and over. May we beg of you not to keep posting the same things over and over? Please? I’m sorry to be rude here, but every time you come in to a thread, it devolves into this endless repetitive loop. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/144 "2013-08-28T12:30:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If his heart had not stopped he was not dead. I have read many stories of Yoga’s doing these sort of things. They can even stop their heart for a few seconds and restart it again. The big difference is they know they are not going to die. > > Death experiencers know they are dead when they leave their bodies. I suggest you read some experiences, there is a link above in a previous post, that will show you the difference. I don’t need o read a person’s what they call experiences, people make up stuff al the time. Some even claim to ride or be taken in a space ship! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/145 "2013-08-28T14:11:38Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I don’t need o read a person’s what they call experiences, people make up stuff al the time. Some even claim to ride or be taken in a space ship! If you can know something is false without even reading about it you must be a miraculous person. I need to study both sides of a debate before I can make a decision whether to believe it or not. This world is still full of things undiscovered. It is great fun to search for truth in all things. Can you say why you are not curious about different things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/146 "2013-08-28T14:24:56Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you can know something is false without even reading about it you must be a miraculous person. I need to study both sides of a debate before I can make a decision whether to believe it or not. > > This world is still full of things undiscovered. It is great fun to search for truth in all things. Can you say why you are not curious about different things. Believing anonymous anecdotes just because you agree with them isn’t “studying”-it’s gullibility. When one side has fact and the other side has nothing but unsubstantiated bullshit, the debate is over and it’s time to move on to the next subject. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/147 "2013-08-28T15:24:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Believing anonymous anecdotes just because you agree with them isn’t “studying”-it’s gullibility. When one side has fact and the other side has nothing but unsubstantiated bullshit, the debate is over and it’s time to move on to the next subject. How does one know whether or not something is unsubstantiated or not unless they look into the subject. There is no way they can know. This is where faith comes into play. Faith can be held in believing or disbelieving. I grew up being told that God existed and if I did not do certain things and believe certain things I would spend eternity in hell where I would burn forever. Let me tell you I was scared plenty of God and hell. I did everything I was supposed to do and still I was scared. I would have anxiety attacks and cry for no reason except fear of hell and devils and demons. When I was old enough to break away from church I did so, but the fear remained. So I went to different churches and learned how they believed. I finally found a Unitarian church with a large library of books on the Bible and Christianity. These books were written by scholars and they contained history of the Bible. So instead of going to church I sat in the library and read as long as I could every week. I began to see how the concept of hell developed and how it was used. This was freedom to me from the terrors of hell. It opened my thinking to new ideas and concepts. It launched me into serious study of life and got me into college. Knowledge is power. I learned that a lot of people in this world don’t believe in themselves. They think they are inferior in some way They hold onto antiquated concepts and ideas that keep them limited in thinking. So everyone needs to learn all they can about life and how different people think about it. It is a wondrous study, the study of life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/148 "2013-08-28T15:34:48Z")
Getting back to the original topic. What he do or do not know about the mind has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not any gods exist. On the other hand, it is possible to show that some concepts of gods can’t exist, as has been shown [in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700676) ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/149 "2013-08-28T15:35:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We can’t taste minds because eating brains is typically frowned upon; but if you did, you’d be tasting a mind. > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > But we should, because a mind is a terrible thing to waste. [**Scrumdilyicious!**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried-brain_sandwich) ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/150 "2013-08-28T15:53:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How does one know whether or not something is unsubstantiated or not unless they look into the subject. There is no way they can know. This is where faith comes into play. {snip} For the same reason physicists know there are no perpetual time machines. They don’t have to test each and every one. But I’m up for a demonstration and to be proved wrong if only we could find a willing participant. There is no question that many people experience OBE. What needs to be done is to determine if there is truly something leaving the body as you claim. This is easy to test, and Blackmore has done plenty of it. Simply find one that has OBE’s quite frequently and have them read a top number off of the shelf. Blackmore never could find anybody and is still waiting for her first successful claimant. You, OTOH, in the past already claim people have already passed such tests. So let’s set up our own testing and see who is right, if only you will agree to it. If the test is set up proper and everything is on the up and up, this could not only be easily demonstrated, it could be replicated as many times necessary. I bet we could find some Dopers in your area that would agree to do the test, and would even save you the trip money. You may not have these OBE’s that frequently, but surely you know many that do, and perhaps someone close to you. If you truly believe this stuff is legitimate, what do you have to lose? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/151 "2013-08-28T15:57:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Getting back to the original topic. > What he do or do not know about the mind has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not any gods exist. On the other hand, it is possible to show that some concepts of gods can’t exist, as has been shown [in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700676) How do you know whether God is omnipotent. Is it because someone said He was and you believed them? If we don’t know God we don’t know His attributes. Same questions of the mind. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/152 "2013-08-28T15:59:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How do you know whether God is omnipotent. Is it because someone said He was and you believed them? If we don’t know God we don’t know His attributes. Same questions of the mind. I didn’t say whatever god you believe in is omnipotent. Read my post again. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/153 "2013-08-28T16:30:24Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > For the same reason physicists know there are no perpetual time machines. They don’t have to test each and every one. But I’m up for a demonstration and to be proved wrong if only we could find a willing participant. > > There is no question that many people experience OBE. What needs to be done is to determine if there is truly something leaving the body as you claim. This is easy to test, and Blackmore has done plenty of it. Simply find one that has OBE’s quite frequently and have them read a top number off of the shelf. Blackmore never could find anybody and is still waiting for her first successful claimant. You, OTOH, in the past already claim people have already passed such tests. So let’s set up our own testing and see who is right, if only you will agree to it. > > If the test is set up proper and everything is on the up and up, this could not only be easily demonstrated, it could be replicated as many times necessary. I bet we could find some Dopers in your area that would agree to do the test, and would even save you the trip money. You may not have these OBE’s that frequently, but surely you know many that do, and perhaps someone close to you. > > If you truly believe this stuff is legitimate, what do you have to lose? I have nothing to lose. But your proposed study has already been done many times. The largest study is now being done by Horizons. > **[Web Hosting, Reseller Hosting & Domain Names from Heart Internet](http://horizonresearch.org)** > > Reseller Hosting, Web Hosting, Dedicated Servers & Domain Names | Heart Internet Dr. Sam Parnia has been pushing the study because of his own research. [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html) There are already many cases of hits by independent researchers so the main study was began and they wont tell any results but in the sacond link is some interesting results. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/154 "2013-08-28T16:35:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have nothing to lose. But your proposed study has already been done many times. So instead of linking to one that hasn’t been completed yet, give us a link to one out of those “many” that _has_ been completed. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/155 "2013-08-28T17:44:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have nothing to lose. But your proposed study has already been done many times. > > The largest study is now being done by Horizons. > > [Web Hosting, Reseller Hosting & Domain Names from Heart Internet](http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279) > > Dr. Sam Parnia has been pushing the study because of his own research. > > [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html) > > There are already many cases of hits by independent researchers so the main study was began and they wont tell any results but in the sacond link is some interesting results. Neither link had anything to do with what I proposed. You have nothing to lose if you legitimately believe in this stuff, do you or not? So I take it is a no, you’re not willing to do this or find somebody that has these OBE’s on a regular basis read something as simple as a number off of a top shelf? This isn’t rocket science, lekatt, it’s a pretty straightforward simple test. Either they can or can’t do it. Think of your book sales, why they would literally skyrocket after a successful completion of the test. All you need is just find one person that can actually do what they have been claiming to do all along. One of all of the millions and millions that have had such experiences, I ask of only one. But even that is asking for too much, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/156 "2013-08-28T19:01:23Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Neither link had anything to do with what I proposed. You have nothing to lose if you legitimately believe in this stuff, do you or not? So I take it is a no, you’re not willing to do this or find somebody that has these OBE’s on a regular basis read something as simple as a number off of a top shelf? This isn’t rocket science, lekatt, it’s a pretty straightforward simple test. Either they can or can’t do it. Think of your book sales, why they would literally skyrocket after a successful completion of the test. All you need is just find one person that can actually do what they have been claiming to do all along. One of all of the millions and millions that have had such experiences, I ask of only one. But even that is asking for too much, isn’t it? It is exactly like you proposed. The research has already been done by scientist so why should I try to duplicate it. There is other research where numbers are noticed by patients going out of body. It is very real. I don’t understand your rejection of the results. What have you got to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/157 "2013-08-28T19:07:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is other research where numbers are noticed by patients going out of body. It is very real. Only in your rather vivid imagination does such research exist. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/158 "2013-08-28T21:21:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is exactly like you proposed. Really, were you in it, me, or any other Doper? > [@](#): > > What have you got to lose. I’m not the one backing out, or you? It sure looks like it, but maybe you truly don’t understand what I’m proposing, and if that is the case, you can’t back out of something you don’t understand. > [@](#): > > The research has already been done by scientist so why should I try to duplicate it. There is other research where numbers are noticed by patients going out of body. It is very real. I don’t understand your rejection of the results. This cite of yours is loaded with pseudo-scientists and woo-woo, some names I remember reading some 30 years ago in _Flim-Flam_. Charles Tart claims tests of someone having a OBE successfully read off a five digit number. Didn’t know he was still at it. But this goes against all of Blackmore’s work who never found anyone able to do this once or others who could never find anyone able to even recognize a common object up on the top shelf. There are literally hundreds of cases such as this that never once found a positive result. If such a person truly does have this ability, you agree it could be easily replicated, would it not? And that’s what we are looking for, is replication, and if everything is truly on the up and up, other research could replicate the same findings, not just a few fringe groups claiming positive results, but mainstream science. If this started happening, it would no longer belong in pseudo-science but would find itself in respectable journals of science. Perhaps one of the most comprehensive research critical of NDE’s on-line is by [Keith Augustine](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html). So you see, we can swap cites and book recommendations all day long, and it’s not going to get us anywhere. I’m proposing neither of us rely on books or cites from here on out, and finally YOU and ME or some Doper near you, agree to do our own tests of either you or someone you know that has these frequent OBE’s and do the tests I mentioned by placing a number on a top shelf. I don’t know how to say this and make it any more simple. Do you understand now? I think you’re purposely pretending to not understand me, and if so, I’ll take it as NO, you are not courageous enough to find out what the results would really be in a honest setting, and you really don’t believe in the stuff you claim you do, but are only a great pretender. I’m willing to be shown I’m wrong. Are you? Also, a correction in my post # 150. Meant to say perpetual motion machines, not perpetual time machines. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/159 "2013-08-28T21:34:06Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Also, a correction in my post # 150. Meant to say perpetual motion machines, not perpetual time machines. I was wondering about that, considering that we _are_ “perpetual time machines”. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654/160 "2013-08-28T21:56:32Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Really, were you in it, me, or any other Doper? > > I’m not the one backing out, or you? It sure looks like it, but maybe you truly don’t understand what I’m proposing, and if that is the case, you can’t back out of something you don’t understand. > > This cite of yours is loaded with pseudo-scientists and woo-woo, some names I remember reading some 30 years ago in _Flim-Flam_. Charles Tart claims tests of someone having a OBE successfully read off a five digit number. Didn’t know he was still at it. But this goes against all of Blackmore’s work who never found anyone able to do this once or others who could never find anyone able to even recognize a common object up on the top shelf. There are literally hundreds of cases such as this that never once found a positive result. If such a person truly does have this ability, you agree it could be easily replicated, would it not? And that’s what we are looking for, is replication, and if everything is truly on the up and up, other research could replicate the same findings, not just a few fringe groups claiming positive results, but mainstream science. If this started happening, it would no longer belong in pseudo-science but would find itself in respectable journals of science. Perhaps one of the most comprehensive research critical of NDE’s on-line is by [Keith Augustine](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html). > > So you see, we can swap cites and book recommendations all day long, and it’s not going to get us anywhere. I’m proposing neither of us rely on books or cites from here on out, and finally YOU and ME or some Doper near you, agree to do our own tests of either you or someone you know that has these frequent OBE’s and do the tests I mentioned by placing a number on a top shelf. I don’t know how to say this and make it any more simple. Do you understand now? > > I think you’re purposely pretending to not understand me, and if so, I’ll take it as NO, you are not courageous enough to find out what the results would really be in a honest setting, and you really don’t believe in the stuff you claim you do, but are only a great pretender. I’m willing to be shown I’m wrong. Are you? > > Also, a correction in my post # 150. Meant to say perpetual motion machines, not perpetual time machines. I knew what you meant. I have exchanged emails with Blackmore, and we debated the issues.As with most skeptics she had no answers for the fact that experiencers bring back information they could not have known before the experience. I asked her how she could ignore this information and she said: “it is not easy.” The thing about NDEs are people lives are changed forever for the better and when disbelievers have the experience they become believers. If you want a few videos on this let me know. Hallucinations do not change lives for the better. > [@](#): > > I am an emergency room nurse. About a year ago we received a patient by ambulance in full cardiorespiratory arrest. No pulse, no effective cardiac rhythm ( refractory ventricular fibrillation ). Patient had been in arrest for at least 15 minutes prior to arival. CPR/ACLS in progress on arrival. > > To make a long story short, we worked him for about 25 minutes without positive response. The physician in charge stated that we would defibrillate one more time and if no response we would stop. One last shock, and his heart converted to a beating rhythm, and continued to impove from there, later being admitted to intensive care. > > AT NO POINT DURING HIS STAY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS HE CONSCIOUS. Most of the time he was technically dead. > > The next day, one of the ICU nurses called down and told us the patient wanted to see several of the ER staff. He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses. He said he wanted to see us in person “to make sure he wasn’t going crazy”. > > During a slow time later that night we went upstairs and he called us by name without introductions. He told a story of floating out of his body, just below the ceiling, watching us attempt resuscitation. He said he knew our names from when we called out to each other while working on him. One thing I found especially fascinating was that he said when we defibrillated ( shocked ) him, he would be pulled back into his body for a few seconds, then end up back floating by the ceiling a few seconds after. The last time we defibbed him he was pulled back in and became unconscious. At this point he had a pulse and improved. > > We have talked quite a bit about it here. Some of the staff think maybe he was actually semi-conscious the whole time, his brain remaining oxegenated and at least partly functional due to effective CPR. Something akin to anesthetized surgical patients retaining the sense of hearing and being able to relate the conversations of the operating team after they have been awakened. > > Others in the group here believe it was a NDE. We reason that this would explain the out-of-body viewpoint and the retention of sight and cognitive abilities by the patient even though he was to all intents and purposes dead when we were together in the ER. There is no other way he could have known our names, either, as his family was not allowed in the room during the resuscitation. > > None of us have any experience in this matter and when I stumbled on this newsgroup I thought I’d post and see what you all thought. One surprised encounter. We thought it was a NDE. The patient was able to see also while unconscious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-mind/666654.md?page=9)