# God and the European Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792 "2004-05-18T16:16:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/1 "2004-05-18T16:16:57Z")
Apparently the issue of “Church and State” becomes more complicated when you have more than one “State”… [http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=513171§ion=news](http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=513171§ion=news) How are they going to reconcile religious differences between countries? The US has been wrangling with this issue for a long time and we can’t agree amongst ourselves if religion should be integrated into the Constitution. Can the EU pull it off? Should they even try? Note – I’d like this not to turn into a discussion of the United States Constitution and religion… there’s already plenty of threads about that. I’m curious about the EU member countries. Do their individual constitutions have references to god? Would they accept being trumped by an EU charter that does not? EZ ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/2 "2004-05-18T16:25:53Z")
Ireland constitution on Gog > [@](#): > > Article 44 > > 1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. > > 2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen. > > 2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion. > > 3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status. > > 4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. > > 5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes. > > 6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation. [http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm](http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm) As an atheist I’d love there to be no mention but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/3 "2004-05-18T16:32:45Z")
Well for starters not all member states even have written Constitutions, much less written Constitutions mentioning God. WRT Ireland I think it’s important to note that while there is significant support for the mention of God in the EU Constitution (as in the Irish Constitution), it’s by no means a priority issue for the vast majority of people. Personally I don’t see the need for an EU Constitution at all. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/4 "2004-05-18T19:13:55Z")
No Gog mentioned here: Article 6 [Religion, Belief] (1) Everyone shall have the right to manifest freely his religion or belief, either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to his responsibility under the law. (2) Rules concerning the exercise of this right other than in buildings and enclosed places may be laid down by Act of Parliament for the protection of health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders. Originally posted by **Ruadh** > [@](#): > > - > > Personally I don’t see the need for an EU Constitution at all.\* Nor me. As a matter of fact, I don’t see the need for an EU. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/5 "2004-05-18T19:55:13Z")
God is mentioned once in the preamble: > [@](#): > > Preamble > > Conscious of their responsibility before **God** and man, > > Inspired by the determination to promote world peace as an equal partner in a united Europe, the German people, in the exercise of their constituent power, have adopted this Basic Law. > > […] In addition to that there is a reference in the oath of office: > [@](#): > > Article 56 [Oath of office] > > On assuming his office, the Federal President shall take the following oath before the assembled Members of the Bundestag and the Bundesrat: > > ``` > “I swear that I will dedicate my efforts to the well-being of the German people, promote their welfare, protect them from harm, uphold and defend the Basic Law and the laws of the Federation, perform my duties conscientiously, and do justice to all. So help me **God**.” > > ``` > > **The oath may also be taken without religious affirmation.** The same oath is used not only for the Federal President\* but also for the Chancellor and all ministers. The current Chancellor and several ministers chose to drop the religious affirmation. There are several additional references to religion in general. Note that for historical reasons many things in Germany are solved in a rather unsecular way (church tax collected by the IRS…) - Germany trivia item #43656: Yes, Germany does indeed have a president. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/6 "2004-05-18T20:10:39Z")
Europeans aren’t very religous - and they become less so for each year it seems - so I doubt this is something that the population cares much about. They should though, such a reference could have serious implications for future court rulings: > [@](#): > > How the question of religion is handled could have serious legal implications once the EU’s constitutional text comes into force, officials say, possibly influencing the outcome of future court rulings on such issues as euthanasia, abortion rights, and human cloning. ‘This debate is not just an academic one,’ says EU spokesman Jonathan Faull. ‘In 10 years’, 15 or 100 years’ time, it could have important implications in interpreting the text’. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/const\_eu.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/const_eu.htm) I’m not completely sure which EU countries has a reference to God in their Constitution. The Catholic countries (Poland, Ireland, Spain, Italy, others ?) has such a reference I think, and some Protestant countries also has one. But I’m pretty sure a majority does not. It’s not very surprising that it’s the Catholic countries (and the Vatican) who wants to include a reference to God in the upcoming European Constitution, and I suspect the powerful Christian parties in Germany and Belgium support this as well. On a sidenote, abortion is legal and easily available within the union, except in Catholic Ireland and Poland, and it’s limited in Spain. An EU Constitution which is mute on this issue (doesn’t mention God or religion) will not trump those national Constitution which include such a reference. But if the EU Constitution ends up with such a reference it would apply to all member states. However, there are effective guarantees on non-discrimination on religious grounds in the European Convention on Human Rights, so it’s not likely that future EU law will be dominated by hardcore Christian values, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/7 "2004-05-18T20:50:18Z")
This issue has been around for quite a moment, but I hoped it had been forgotten with all the arguments abouts the number of seats in the comission, the %age of population required to block a decision, etc…Apparently not. I would point out by the way that a reference to christianism would be an issue re. the candidacy of Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/8 "2004-05-18T20:54:56Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > On a sidenote, abortion is legal and easily available within the union, except in Catholic Ireland and Poland, and it’s limited in Spain. Just FYI, it’s also illegal in Northern Ireland, which has a Protestant majority. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/9 "2004-05-18T21:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > . > > BRUSSELS (Reuters) - God is back in the debate on the draft EU constitution as several states renewed demands to make a reference to Europe’s Christian roots. > … Well, I don’t know whether to laugh or growl. “Christian roots”? HUH! Well, our various bits of landmass msut be a lot younger than previously thought. Anything merely mentioning a right to follow some chosen religious observance would be fine, of course, but nothing more than that, I hope. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/10 "2004-05-19T04:00:06Z")
I notice the cited article does not say which side the United Kingdom is taking in this. The UK has an Established Church, but has often been described in recent decades as a “post-Christian society.” So where do they stand? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/11 "2004-05-19T04:46:21Z")
There should also be a nod in the direction of Zeus and Odin, in acknowledgement of Euro’s pagan roots. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/12 "2004-05-19T04:51:30Z")
The draft constitution already mentions “religion”; just not explicitly the Christian (or any other specific) religion. From the preamble \*“Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, the values of which, still present in its heritage, have embedded within the life of society the central role of the human person and his or her inviolable and inalienable rights, and respect for law, . . . \* The preamble doesn’t have any operative effect on its own, but it sets the context within which the operative provisions of the constitution will be interpreted and applied. A reference to “the religious inheritance of Europe” is plainly a reference predominantly to Christianity, or at least it can easily be so interpreted. Some of the proposed amendments have sought to make this explicit. Others have been an attempt to \broaden\ the reference, by explicitly including other religious traditions. Still other proposed amendments have sought to balance the reference to “religious heritage” with one to “lay (or secular) heritage” or to to Greek and Roman civilisations and/or the Enlightenment, or to refer to Greece, Rome, the Enlightenment and so forth but _not_ to religion, or to drop the whole philosophical heritage bit altogether. Dropping all reference to God or religion isn’t necessarily a neutral position; to mention some ethical values (or sources of ethical values) while overlooking others is not “neutral” with respect either to those mentioned or those overlooked. To mention none at all would be “neutral” as between the various value systems, but the courts and other institutions are going to bring \some\ value system to bear in applying and interpreting the constitution; shouldn’t the drafters of the constution ignore that reality, and let the courts, etc, decide for themselves where to find their values? The present draft is obviously a compromise; a non-specific reference to religion in a list of sources of ethical values. Like a lot of compromises, it probably dissatisfies more people than it satisfies, but there is no common ground among the dissatisified, and they criticise it for different reasons. **Brainglutton** asks what the position of the UK government was on this issue. It doesn’t have a position; none of the member states governments do. The Constitition was drafted in the European Convention, a body which included members from all the member states (and candidate states). But the members of the Convention did not represent their national governments or national parliaments, and they did not vote in national blocs. They adopted individual positions, and were more likely to align with politically like-minded colleagues from other states than with colleagues from their own states. The national governments will have to decide whether to ratify the Constitution or not, but they ratify it as a whole; they won’t have to adopt specific positions on this or that element of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/13 "2004-05-19T05:06:56Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > **Brainglutton** asks what the position of the UK government was on this issue. It doesn’t have a position; none of the member states governments do. The Constitition was drafted in the European Convention, a body which included members from all the member states (and candidate states). But the members of the Convention did not represent their national governments or national parliaments, and they did not vote in national blocs. They adopted individual positions, and were more likely to align with politically like-minded colleagues from other states than with colleagues from their own states. **AWESOME!** That’s the way international politics **should** be! ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/14 "2004-05-19T18:44:52Z")
Yahweh is not eligible for membership, pending abolition of death penalty ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/15 "2004-05-19T21:42:04Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Yahweh is not eligible for membership, pending abolition of death penalty If by Yahewh you mean the proper name for God in the OT, then this must be the biggest hijack of a GD thread in quite a while. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-european-union/245792/16 "2004-05-19T21:47:03Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > If by Yahewh you mean the proper name for God in the OT, then this must be the biggest hijack of a GD thread in quite a while. :dubious: Yeah . . . Got off a good one, though!