# God and the Problem Of Evil. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411 "2012-10-31T08:57:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/261 "2012-12-17T13:56:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about responding to the question I just asked? Czar, I did try to respond. Let me try to rephrase my answer. There’s at least 2 ways to look at the Bible. First, you can look at the Bible like a high school text book with all the answers in the book itself. The second way is more dynamic, it is looking at the Bible as a spiritual guide. It doesn’t have all the answers, it merely helps the reader to find his own answers. I believe the bible is a spiritual guide and there are passages in it which says that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe that those passages are accurate and that many of the people that wrote passages for the Bible were spiritually inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/262 "2012-12-17T14:00:10Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Czar, > > I did try to respond. Let me try to rephrase my answer. There’s at least 2 ways to look at the Bible. First, you can look at the Bible like a high school text book with all the answers in the book itself. The second way is more dynamic, it is looking at the Bible as a spiritual guide. It doesn’t have all the answers, it merely helps the reader to find his own answers. > > I believe the bible is a spiritual guide and there are passages in it which says that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe that those passages are accurate and that many of the people that wrote passages for the Bible were spiritually inspired. It all boils down to the fact that you will believe the parts of the Bible that already support what you want to believe, right? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/263 "2012-12-17T17:17:38Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > Forgive me if this has been brought up in earlier pages of this thread – I’ve only skimmed most of it, having just dropped in after an absence of a couple years (what’s up folks, good to see so little has changed, hi Opal!) – but I have to ask, what does “free will” mean to you, and how does it affect the question or the answer? From where I’m standing, “free will” is just another word for “randomness.” Otherwise, I have no earthly idea what you or anyone else means by it. Free will means the ability to say no even when faced with extremely positive outcomes. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Nobody has ever chosen to fall in love. Nobody has ever been able to will themselves out of love, either. These two simple truths are an ever renewed source of grief for mankind, if art history is any indication. > I think you can just as easily apply them to faith, for that matter. Falling in love may be triggered in part by completely uncontrolable mechanism, remaining in love, caring, putting up with the problems, is free will all the way. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/264 "2012-12-17T20:29:31Z")
Not in my experience, no. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/265 "2012-12-17T20:40:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It all boils down to the fact that you will believe the parts of the Bible that already support what you want to believe, right? No. Belief is important but it is not the only factor. The written word is only capable of a small number of interpretations. For instance if the Bible says that Mary was the mother of Jesus, then she was the mother of Jesus and not his father. Now you can argue forever, about whether she was or wasn’t a virgin, because that can be subject to different interpretations. When you look at the Bible as a textbook then you are forced to be more literal in your interpretations. But it you look at it as a spiritual guide, then it doesn’t bother you that much that others have slightly different interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/266 "2012-12-18T02:07:52Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Free will means the ability to say no even when faced with extremely positive outcomes. I don’t think this clears anything up. Something like your free will is implied in that single word “ability.” What makes it an ability and not either a consequence of the nature of one’s character, nor an effect of random circumstance? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeping\_Synapse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Sleeping\_Synapse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeping_Synapse)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/267 "2012-12-18T02:17:50Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Why would a loving merciful God allow so much suffering in the world? It / He (nay ‘she’, because religion is wholly phallocentric) would not allow for such things to happen unless It / He was an abject masochist. Religion: **debunked** ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/268 "2012-12-23T02:48:32Z")
> [@Sleeping\_Synapse](#): > > It / He (nay ‘she’, because religion is wholly phallocentric) would not allow for such things to happen unless It / He was an abject masochist. > > Religion: **debunked** I do not believe that God is a masochist. I believe that He is God to the entire universe. The Bible is the spiritual guide for mankind only. Can you visualize an ant reading the Bible. When you take the view that God is the creator of the entire universe, then the existence of evil makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![MybackPacksGotJets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MybackPacksGotJets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MybackPacksGotJets)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/269 "2012-12-24T09:29:13Z")
Abrahamic religions state that God has left man in charge of the Earth. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Surah 2:30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. Therefore it is incorrect to argue the existence of evil on Earth leads to the disproving of the Abrahamic ideas of God(which are that the evils that occur in this existence are of our doing. The hunger, disease and war are all of our own doing and whether they continue or not is in our hands). That covers the moral aspect of the “why does evil exist if there is a God”. I read this a while ago, I think it is helpful in answering the question of “natural evil”: [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural\_evil\_theodicity.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/270 "2012-12-24T13:27:28Z")
> [@MybackPacksGotJets](#): > > I read this a while ago, I think it is helpful in answering the question of “natural evil”: [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural\_evil\_theodicity.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/natural_evil_theodicity.html) You are right. That page is pure evil. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/271 "2012-12-24T13:56:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > From the link > As Obi-wan said, from a certain point of view. So, any science that doesn’t support their view isn’t true. I’m sure they are creationists, every one. > For the rest it makes me think of the wife beater who does it not because he hates his spouse, but because she did wrong. If this God existed, he should be locked up for the rest of his life. > > They also do the “god is right by definition” bit. So if you think God orders you to kill your children, you go right ahead, correct? Look at the Bible as Man’s attempt to explain God. It is a spiritual quest. It is a quest inspired by the Holy Spirit. 2 thousand years ago, the Jews and the Christians perceived of a God that rewarded the good and punished the bad. Thus, let there be heaven and let there be hell. Their definition of hell was the individual that turned away from God. In this World it is relatively simple, if you did not listen to God you would go to Hell. Thus, your obligation was to listen and follow God no matter what he told you to do. This concept of God still exists today on the extreme right. Many mass murderers have killed in the name of God. I believe the terrorists are following the will of God. ---
**Author:** ![MybackPacksGotJets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MybackPacksGotJets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MybackPacksGotJets)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/272 "2012-12-25T02:51:23Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You are right. That page is pure evil. How so? I don’t agree with everything it states, and I can see how it could be viewed as “cold” but I don’t think evil fits the description. ---
**Author:** ![MybackPacksGotJets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MybackPacksGotJets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MybackPacksGotJets)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/273 "2012-12-25T03:04:35Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Look at the Bible as Man’s attempt to explain God. It is a spiritual quest. It is a quest inspired by the Holy Spirit. > > 2 thousand years ago, the Jews and the Christians perceived of a God that rewarded the good and punished the bad. Thus, let there be heaven and let there be hell. Their definition of hell was the individual that turned away from God. > > In this World it is relatively simple, if you did not listen to God you would go to Hell. > > Thus, your obligation was to listen and follow God no matter what he told you to do. > > This concept of God still exists today on the extreme right. Many mass murderers have killed in the name of God. I believe the terrorists are following the will of God. The Bible is not an attempt to explain God, it is a guide on how to conduct yourself in a manner pleasing to God. Sure through knowing what is pleasing to God we can learn to a small degree what He is like but that’s about it. You could I find out I like cheese, but for all you know it’s not the taste I like so much as the way it goes stretchy when it melts. When you say the terrorists are following the will of God, do you mean that literally or in the sense that you believe that they believe they are following the will of God? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/274 "2012-12-25T05:58:52Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > A related question that I, at least, find interesting to wrestle with: **How much suffering _should_ a loving, merciful God allow?** > > In my own life, _some_ of the suffering I’ve experienced, I don’t find at all problematic or incompatible with a loving God. For example, a few weeks ago, I stubbed my toe. It certainly hurt at the time, and the pain lingered for at least a day or two afterward, but I wasn’t saying “How could a loving God allow me to feel this pain?” and before too long I had almost completely forgotten about it. > > That’s admittedly a trivial example, barely worth calling “suffering.” I’ve certainly suffered worse evils, emotional as well as physical; and other people have suffered way worse things than I have. But when I look back on my life from my current perspective, some—_some_—of the (physical or emotional) pain or suffering I have experienced seems to me now to be not that big a deal, or to have resulted in something of value, or to be an essential part of being alive, and in any case doesn’t prevent me from being happy today. > > And I wonder if it’s possible that _all_ such suffering could look that way from the perspective of eternity. I really hesitate to say yes, because that seems to trivialize some very profound and horrible human suffering, and because I can’t imagine how it would work—but that may well just be a failure of my imagination. And there are Bible verses that suggest such an answer. It’s a mistake to look for consistency in the Bible. Remember, there is no single author to the Bible. Various authors wrote different parts of the Bible. Thus, you have God acting in different ways that are difficult to reconcile. ---
**Author:** ![M.Wilkinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@M.Wilkinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/M.Wilkinson)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/275 "2013-01-17T22:21:26Z")
I haven’t read the whole thread but I suppose everyone is saying what they think. Firstly, since we have free will, this means there will be people who choose to hurt other people and do many other bad things. Second, in terms of natural disasters, I want to say that first imagine what the earth would be like if there were no storms and all the seas were dead calm, and there were no fault lines and active volcanoes. It would seem kind of unnatural, don’t you think? Having said that, when these disasters do happen then we should accept them but also the people who are able to, such as, the local government should help with relief and such things. Thirdly, diseases: medical science is very good at treating many diseases and providing relief for others (like cancer and aids). I believe there is a cure for every disease (not one cure for everything but every disease has its own cure.) This leads on to my next point, although God allows diease he also gives us the means to cure it. Basically there is a balance in this world. This world is not totally good or evil but a mixture of the two and although it would be hard to measure, I believe this mixture is in balance. ---
**Author:** ![M.Wilkinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@M.Wilkinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/M.Wilkinson)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/276 "2013-01-17T22:26:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > It’s a mistake to look for consistency in the Bible. Remember, there is no single author to the Bible. Various authors wrote different parts of the Bible. Thus, you have God acting in different ways that are difficult to reconcile. I agree about your point about the different authors and how that makes it look like God behaves in different ways. I’m a muslim, so I at least don’t have to worry about different publications of the quran having different verses, but that’s a discussion for another time. Having said that I want to emphasize that this doesn’t mean you can’t learn anything from the bible since at the very least I believe the source of the wisdom from Jesus is genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/277 "2013-01-17T22:26:48Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread but I suppose everyone is saying what they think. > Firstly, since we have free will, this means there will be people who choose to hurt other people and do many other bad things. > Second, in terms of natural disasters, I want to say that first imagine what the earth would be like if there were no storms and all the seas were dead calm, and there were no fault lines and active volcanoes. It would seem kind of unnatural, don’t you think? Having said that, when these disasters do happen then we should accept them but also the people who are able to, such as, the local government should help with relief and such things. > Thirdly, diseases: medical science is very good at treating many diseases and providing relief for others (like cancer and aids). I believe there is a cure for every disease (not one cure for everything but every disease has its own cure.) This leads on to my next point, although God allows diease he also gives us the means to cure it. Basically there is a balance in this world. This world is not totally good or evil but a mixture of the two and although it would be hard to measure, I believe this mixture is in balance. He didn’t _allow_ desease. He _created_ desease. He created the sun…which gives us cancer. He created horrible birth defects that kill innocent children. ---
**Author:** ![M.Wilkinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@M.Wilkinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/M.Wilkinson)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/278 "2013-01-17T22:34:20Z")
Yeah he created these things. I ask you: where do those children end up after dying from birth defects? If you believe in the afterlife like I do then I would say they go straight to heaven. What’s the problem with that? Of course there would be distraught parents, but maybe their next child will be healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/279 "2013-01-17T22:46:09Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#): > > Yeah he created these things. I ask you: where do those children end up after dying from birth defects? If you believe in the afterlife like I do then I would say they go straight to heaven. What’s the problem with that? Of course there would be distraught parents, but maybe their next child will be healthy. He kills millions himself, has his followers kill millions more, devestates us with desease, floods, earthquakes and the like, and lets little infants be raped and beaten to death…and you actually _believe_ him when he says Candyland is right around the corner?!? Some days I’m proud to be an atheist, and some days I’m fucking embarrassed that there are so few of us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/280 "2013-01-17T22:48:48Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#): > > Second, in terms of natural disasters, I want to say that first imagine what the earth would be like if there were no storms and all the seas were dead calm, and there were no fault lines and active volcanoes. It would seem kind of unnatural, don’t you think? It wouldn’t seem unnatural at all. If the world had been created without those things, we would be used to it. You could make that claim about any bad thing people are used to. > [@](#): > > Thirdly, diseases: medical science is very good at treating many diseases and providing relief for others (like cancer and aids). Some types of cancer, yes. Others still kill people very quickly. > [@](#): > > I believe there is a cure for every disease (not one cure for everything but every disease has its own cure.) This leads on to my next point, although God allows diease he also gives us the means to cure it. Yes, it just takes thousands of years to discover the cure and thousands or millions of people have died of the disease by the time it’s discovered. What a nice thing it is to have the opportunity to eventually discover a cure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411.md?page=15)