# God and the Problem Of Evil. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411 "2012-10-31T08:57:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/21 "2012-10-31T14:11:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on it is we are God’s children and are all ‘gods’ with powers that can be used for good and seemingly evil. We are placed in a area where our powers are moderated but still work. For instance a parent tells their child they will never amount to anything, and the child does not, the parent had used a god ability to curse their child. All evil comes from us misusing and not using out god powers correctly, every disease, every disability every evil is from one of God’s children not realizing what they are doing. > > What is needed to stop this progression of unintended evil is the process of self awareness, just like a human being needs to become self aware, we also need this self awareness on a godly level, it is to that point that we realize that we are gods that we start the healing process. Apparently some when realizing who they are go off and try to do things their way which is a entirely different aspect but it boils down to the same thing, it is only those who they can deceive into doing evil unintentionally do they get their power from. So evil has no actual power in our world but can only deceive those who care into seemingly evil acts. > > Why does God allow this system? My take is we are made in the image of God, we are actually God’s natural offspring and what happens naturally when God (male) and God (female) get together (which ‘both’ of those ‘gods’ is fully one God, along with all the offspring - God is One). Could God change this, yes i’m sure, but perhaps there is something about the natural process of Love that is superior to changing us into no longer made in the image of God. Could you please tell me how to stop earthquakes from killing innocent children? ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/22 "2012-10-31T14:12:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on it is we are God’s children and are all ‘gods’ with powers that can be used for good and seemingly evil. We are placed in a area where our powers are moderated but still work. For instance a parent tells their child they will never amount to anything, and the child does not, the parent had used a god ability to curse their child. All evil comes from us misusing and not using out god powers correctly, every disease, every disability every evil is from one of God’s children not realizing what they are doing. > > What is needed to stop this progression of unintended evil is the process of self awareness, just like a human being needs to become self aware, we also need this self awareness on a godly level, it is to that point that we realize that we are gods that we start the healing process. Apparently some when realizing who they are go off and try to do things their way which is a entirely different aspect but it boils down to the same thing, it is only those who they can deceive into doing evil unintentionally do they get their power from. So evil has no actual power in our world but can only deceive those who care into seemingly evil acts. > > Why does God allow this system? My take is we are made in the image of God, we are actually God’s natural offspring and what happens naturally when God (male) and God (female) get together (which ‘both’ of those ‘gods’ is fully one God, along with all the offspring - God is One). Could God change this, yes i’m sure, but perhaps there is something about the natural process of Love that is superior to changing us into no longer made in the image of God. Christian science? Also, how does this position explain something like natural disasters? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/23 "2012-10-31T14:45:06Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [Oh, God! (1977) - Quotes - IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076489/quotes) > > Jerry Landers: If you’re God, how can You permit all the suffering that goes on in the world? > God: I don’t permit the suffering - you do. What people allowed the suffering from earthquakes and hurricanes and other natural disasters? Do these people know they don’t have to allow it? I hope somebody told them! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/24 "2012-10-31T14:45:48Z")
The best answer I was ever able to come up with was: All the best stories involve serious suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/25 "2012-10-31T14:47:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [Oh, God! (1977) - Quotes - IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076489/quotes) > > Jerry Landers: If you’re God, how can You permit all the suffering that goes on in the world? > God: I don’t permit the suffering - you do. I’m sure all the people in the world surviving the aftermath of Sandy right now will be happy to hear that their suffering is their fault. ETA: Eh, made a point several people made. It’s just that obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/26 "2012-10-31T14:51:31Z")
If God is all knowing and all powerful and cares about human beings, and he or she permits the sort of shit that goes down on Earth every fucking day, he or she is a waste of omnipotence and deserves no respect whatsoever. If whatever you think of as God is NOT all powerful and all knowing, then he or she is just another class of being, an alien, and more to be coped with than worshiped. Much more likely is that God does not exist … this hypothesis fits the facts as we find them beautifully. The religious hypothesis has all sorts of logical problems (ignoring them is “faith”) and is clearly just an example of wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/27 "2012-10-31T14:56:27Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > If whatever you think of as God is NOT all powerful and all knowing, then he or she is just another class of being, an alien, and more to be coped with than worshiped. Like a mighty king, but with comic-book superpowers? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/28 "2012-10-31T14:58:51Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Like a mighty king, but with comic-book superpowers? That’s for the religious to say. Somehow, I doubt they will put it in those terms. But … if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck … ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/29 "2012-10-31T16:33:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The best answer I was ever able to come up with was: All the best stories involve serious suffering. I occasionally wonder if the reason why this world was created was to produce some good stories. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/30 "2012-10-31T16:40:29Z")
I’ll try not to repeat what others have said. There are three solutions to this problem - God is evil, and thus has no problem doing evil to us - God doesn’t give a shit, and so has no problem creating a world where evil happens - God does not exist. Nature doesn’t care who lives on the flood plain. This is clearly the cleanest solution. People already have distinguished natural evil from the evil done by people, which is justified by free will. But even the free will argument doesn’t work very well. Humans do not have perfect free will. Many people have psychological maladies limiting their freedom of action. Most of us probably couldn’t be mass murderers even if we had the chance - we’re not wired that way. (That is why the military has to work very hard at getting people ready to kill when needed.) If God just arranged everyone to be wired to not be a mass murder, their free will would not be reduced anymore than it is for most of us. For natural evil, the only remotely plausible explanation I’ve heard is that it is all for the best. The world is better for each person killed by a falling tree, or each baby drowned in a tsunami. This is, to put it mildly, hard to swallow. Believers who actually buy into this theory should be celebrating each natural disaster as something leading to a better world. The ancient gods made no bones about not being omnibenevolent, and so don’t have this problem. Christians seemed to set up their god to be overly loving as a marketing gimmick, but it kind of crashes when runs into reality, like these things so often do. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/31 "2012-10-31T16:52:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course, that immediately falls flat in the face of “natural evil”; there’s a great deal of suffering in the world that has nothing to do with “free will”. It also makes little sense when it comes to evil inflicted on people against their will; apparently, God only cares about the “free will” of _evil_ people, and good people just have to suck up the abuse. Yeah, thought of that after I posted but was heading out the door for work. The whole natural evil - hurricanes, posionous monkeys, dogs who when they bark they shoot bees at you, I think that all ties to getting booted out of the Garden of Eden (the point being God didn’t create those things originally, but as punishment for for us - which kind of indicates that he’s a bit of a dick himself, but that’s another topic). So, put that fucking apple down. As to free will of good versus evil, I don’t necessarily agree. As in the real world (that is, the one without God) we all have free will (at least most agree on this) and evil exists. And it’s not because physics favors the free will of evil over good, it’s just that evil is the consequence of free will, c’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/32 "2012-10-31T18:13:51Z")
I remember someone saying that a bigger theological problem as to why bad things happen to good people is why do good things happen to bad people? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/33 "2012-10-31T19:35:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I remember someone saying that a bigger theological problem as to why bad things happen to good people is why do good things happen to bad people? The Bible explains that, in the case of wicked kings who die happily in their beds at a ripe old age. God punishes their righteous children. Bit of a dick, as mentioned. You expect a timeless god to get around to punishing the right person in time? ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/34 "2012-10-31T19:39:54Z")
The only explanation I have heard that I thought was reasonable involved the idea that, given free will, we may be living in the best possible reality. Meaning that if things were any better in our past, the future would be worst, making this an reality containing optimum “good” given the starting conditions of the universe and free will. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/35 "2012-10-31T20:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=Nickles] I heard upon his dry dung heap That man cry out, who cannot sleep: If God is God, He is not Good, If God is Good, He is not God; Take the even, take the odd. I would not sleep here if I could Except for the little green leaves in the wood And the wind on the water. [/quote] Assuming the existence of a solely benevolent and omnipotent deity then I don’t see how evil could exist except as a source of trials meant to burn away our human dross. But I reject that hypothesis as too cruel to be the offspring of goodness itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/36 "2012-10-31T20:31:36Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > The only explanation I have heard that I thought was reasonable involved the idea that, given free will, we may be living in the best possible reality. Meaning that if things were any better in our past, the future would be worst, making this an reality containing optimum “good” given the starting conditions of the universe and free will. To me, any suggestion that this reality is optimal is laughable; even in the sense of it being supposedly en route to some glorious state. It’s trivial to imagine changes to this reality that would on the face of it make life more enjoyable, more varied, more fair and with faster progress to an even better future. And my imagination is severely limited by having to live out the “20/21st century guy” program my whole life. Of course we could say that my “on the face of it” assessment is flawed, and god knows better. But again that just means we’ve fallen back to “god works in mysterious ways” again. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/37 "2012-10-31T20:32:48Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Here is a question I have been struggling with myself literally for years now. **Why would a loving merciful God allow so much suffering in the world?** A related question that I, at least, find interesting to wrestle with: **How much suffering _should_ a loving, merciful God allow?** In my own life, _some_ of the suffering I’ve experienced, I don’t find at all problematic or incompatible with a loving God. For example, a few weeks ago, I stubbed my toe. It certainly hurt at the time, and the pain lingered for at least a day or two afterward, but I wasn’t saying “How could a loving God allow me to feel this pain?” and before too long I had almost completely forgotten about it. That’s admittedly a trivial example, barely worth calling “suffering.” I’ve certainly suffered worse evils, emotional as well as physical; and other people have suffered way worse things than I have. But when I look back on my life from my current perspective, some—_some_—of the (physical or emotional) pain or suffering I have experienced seems to me now to be not that big a deal, or to have resulted in something of value, or to be an essential part of being alive, and in any case doesn’t prevent me from being happy today. And I wonder if it’s possible that _all_ such suffering could look that way from the perspective of eternity. I really hesitate to say yes, because that seems to trivialize some very profound and horrible human suffering, and because I can’t imagine how it would work—but that may well just be a failure of my imagination. And there are Bible verses that suggest such an answer. [QUOTE=John 16:21-22] A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Romans 8:18] I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/38 "2012-10-31T20:38:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Out of curiosity, why begin by assuming omnipotence that later got willed away? If you’re comfortable with an Old Testament narrative where an argumentative God makes mistakes while learning how to get the job done, why not take _ **that** _ as the starting point instead of postulating something extra? That’s a really reasonable question - I guess it just has to do with my upbringing. I started at a traditional belief and moved to a narrative that makes sense to me. I mean, it’s all moot. I have no idea who or what God is. I believe that there is a God but I also believe that he/she/it is essentially unknowable. Religion is just our way of grasping at straws in a feeble attempt to understand something that can never be quantified or proven or understood. We’re all just creating our own sets of filters and biases to jive with our own personal needs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/39 "2012-10-31T21:10:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > A related question that I, at least, find interesting to wrestle with: **How much suffering _should_ a loving, merciful God allow?** > > In my own life, _some_ of the suffering I’ve experienced, I don’t find at all problematic or incompatible with a loving God. For example, a few weeks ago, I stubbed my toe. It certainly hurt at the time, and the pain lingered for at least a day or two afterward, but I wasn’t saying “How could a loving God allow me to feel this pain?” and before too long I had almost completely forgotten about it. Well, no one is saying that there should be zero suffering - only minimal suffering. Pain is no problem since we need pain to protect ourselves, and you used your free will to stub your toe. However painful cancer is another matter entirely. > [@](#): > > That’s admittedly a trivial example, barely worth calling “suffering.” I’ve certainly suffered worse evils, emotional as well as physical; and other people have suffered way worse things than I have. But when I look back on my life from my current perspective, some—_some_—of the (physical or emotional) pain or suffering I have experienced seems to me now to be not that big a deal, or to have resulted in something of value, or to be an essential part of being alive, and in any case doesn’t prevent me from being happy today. That we’ve evolved the ability to forget pain doesn’t excuse the pain in the first place. Clearly if tragedies made us give up, we wouldn’t have made it as a species. Compared to other animals, our uniqueness is in remembering tragedy, not dealing with it or forgetting it. > [@](#): > > And I wonder if it’s possible that _all_ such suffering could look that way from the perspective of eternity. I really hesitate to say yes, because that seems to trivialize some very profound and horrible human suffering, and because I can’t imagine how it would work—but that may well just be a failure of my imagination. And there are Bible verses that suggest such an answer. The quote from John is a bit odd, considering that God gave painful childbirth to women as a specific punishment for Eve’s actions in Eden. It might be true that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger - but trees falling on you doesn’t make you stronger, and there have been plenty of cases where the reaction to tragedy has lasted a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411/40 "2012-10-31T21:14:00Z")
None of the free will options work because there is no such thing as free will. [Cite](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/1451683405/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351718024&sr=8-1). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-the-problem-of-evil/639411.md?page=3)