God as a Spirit - a question for theists

[Zanthor]

Post title from, Seals and Croft.

Seems to me the main illusion here is that time is somehow permanent,
an immovable substance, limited and confined by rules.
When it is not.
It seems that way to us, cos we believe we are ‘trapped’ in time.
the passing of the millions and millions of years.
confines us.
to forever ‘Now’

and so is eternity.
forever ;Now. Time without time…

The beginning and the end are one.
and are timeless.

Timelessness, and Eternity are NOT governed by these rules.
Sure, Time, Creation if you like, did not exist before time began.
it is called the Void.
Before the ‘Word’ was spoken.

then, time, as we know it began.
but timelessness, the Alpha and the Omega overrides all introduced constraints…

Before the beginning, Time and Material Being did not exist.
all there was and will ever be, is thought.
which bottom line, is all we are… mere thought.

Which is ‘God’
your enemy is you, how else could you not hate him, blow him apart, if you realised he was you,
if he asked for your coat you would give him your shirt too?
Why else would Jesus have said, love your enemy, if it were not so.
he is you, you are him?

essentially is all you are, and God is. is thought…
you arte God, He is You?
Immortal, not trapped by time,
if only you could ‘see’ it.
Not wrong, not evil, not good nor bad,
Compassion outweighs Evil every time.
Just God living thro you in physical reality.
Cos all evil is is selfish desi8re, me first, all others, last…?
simply a delusion, an aberration of what is Holy?

Nah, prob a wasted post, don’t know if you can see it.
i can only point the way
regards
Zan

[mswas]

Ahh ‘Before the Beginning’, I do love when people use temporal markers to dismiss the notion of time.

puffs and passes

[Zanthor]

@mswas

Ahh ‘Before the Beginning’, I do love when people use temporal markers to dismiss the notion of time.

puffs and passes

Nope, sorry, what i said was introduced temporal markers are irrelevant.
Time measurement is not valid.
what part did i not make clear?
I do despair when people think they have the exact measurement of things when their yardstick is clearly short of a full measure

• sigh *

[mswas]

@Zanthor

Nope, sorry, what i said was introduced temporal markers are irrelevant.
Time measurement is not valid.
what part did i not make clear?
I do despair when people think they have the exact measurement of things when their yardstick is clearly short of a full measure

• sigh *

No I get it I smoke pot and take acid too.

[Zanthor]

@mswas

No I get it I smoke pot and take acid too.

really? i thought that kind of self abuse or desire for enlightenment burnt out in the Late 60’s
but hey, no problem
whatever rocks your boat.
helps you sleep at night, conscientious all squeaky clean.

my suggestion was time is irrelevant, we humans and life are all melded into one thought.
we just don’t see it.
how about you address that?

[mswas]

@Zanthor

really? i thought that kind of self abuse or desire for enlightenment burnt out in the Late 60’s
but hey, no problem
whatever rocks your boat.
helps you sleep at night, conscientious all squeaky clean.

my suggestion was time is irrelevant, we humans and life are all melded into one thought.
we just don’t see it.
how about you address that?

Time isn’t irrelevant. It’s premature to believe that. At a certain point you get to that state of timelessness and you think it is something significant. It is and it isn’t, because eternity doesn’t need you. You exist in a finite time-based existance. Without that finite time-based existance there is no you to be here saying these things and no me to be saying them to.

You’ll notice how filled with time-obsessed jargon your speech is. Clearly it’s relevant or you wouldn’t be using it. Why would pot or LSD go out with the 60s and why on Earth would you think they they ‘went out’ with the 60s? Why do you think that the shamanistic use of externally consumed neurotransmitters was ever a fad? Do you think that there has ever been a moment in our history where someone wasn’t tripping on something? Really? If time doesn’t matter why do you think that psychedelic drugs are rooted in a temporal fad?

[monavis]

@JThunder

You keep saying that over and over, as though it somehow proves your point.

Earlier on, I predicted that you would continue to say, “But there are other possible interpretations! My interpretation is just as good as yours!” as though this somehow supports your claim – namely, that the Bible specifically teaches that God is *necessarily *material. I am disappointed that you persist in using this approach.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that in order for your claim to hold true, it’s not enough to merely declare that there are multiple possible interpretations? Common sense dictates that this undermines your specific claim rather than supporting it.

Since Moses was supposed to be a human being, and wanted God to show Himself to Moses, Moses(in My intrepretation) would expect to see something material, Just as Thomas did with Jesus. I wonder why you seem so upset that someone doesn’t agree with you, It doesn’t bother me, I just speak for myself and know what I think, I do not pretend to read minds or other people’s intent. I do not care if you do not see it my way. I give each human the right to their own thoughts, ideas, beliefs, or intrepretations;what ever floats your boat!!

I made no claim…just the fact that I read the Bible passage to mean Moses wanted to see his god with his human eyes, so expected to see in a material way. What the writer intended using( an allagory or not) is not anything I care about. I can not read the author’s thinking nor do I worry about it any more than I worry about Jack and Jill breaking their neck falling down the hill. or Red Riding hood being eaten by a wolf. They are just stories!

[JThunder]

You continue to miss the point, monavis. As I have repeatedly (REPEATEDLY!) told you, the problem is not that you disagree with me. Rather, the problem is that your conclusion does not logically follow from your interpretation.

Furthermore, while you might personally EXPECT that God would manifest himself materially to Moses, it does not logically follow that God WOULD manifest himself in that manner. Expectation, as even the youngest child quickly learns, is not the same as reality. God could have appeared to be material without actually having a material essence.

And furthermore, even if God DID manifest himself materially, it does not logically follow that God is inherently material. One could just as easily expect that he temporarily adopted a material presence on those occasions. This would not mean that he was material in his essence.

These things have been pointed out to you over and over and over again. And how do you respond? By saying “Why are you so upset that someone disagrees with you? Why? Why?” I can only conclude that you are desperately trying to save face at this point, and so you want to offer some sort of reply – any old response. A response, sadly, is not the same as a rebuttal.

[Voyager]

@Zanthor

my suggestion was time is irrelevant, we humans and life are all melded into one thought.
we just don’t see it.
how about you address that?

If you think time is irrelevant, you must have lots of late library books. Or perhaps you are one of those slowpokes going 20 mph slower than anyone else on the freeway. Hours are irrelevant! Time may be variable, but it is deeply embedded in physics, and entropy says it runs one way.

Anyhow, Dylan said “Time passes slowly” and he trumps Seals and Croft anyday.

[cosmosdan]

@Voyager

If you think time is irrelevant, you must have lots of late library books. Or perhaps you are one of those slowpokes going 20 mph slower than anyone else on the freeway. Hours are irrelevant! Time may be variable, but it is deeply embedded in physics, and entropy says it runs one way.

Anyhow, Dylan said “Time passes slowly” and he trumps Seals and Croft anyday.

Hmmm I dunno. Seals and Crofts were Bahai. They get extra points for that.

[cosmosdan]

Okay , I tried to type a somewhat lengthy response a couple of days ago and somehow it just disappeared. Maybe God doesn’t want me to post in this thread
Although I haven’t had time to really participate this is my kind of thread.

Recently I sang at the local Bahai center again. I love the warm, ,hopeful, positive spirit there but this time I had to wonder if I was being true to myself when singing classic hymns that alluded to God as a separate being, ruler and creator if the universe. I see the God of religions more as a metaphor or icon for a something more we don’t and can’t comprehend. Having traveled through that stage I don’t have a problem with people who have chosen that path for themselves. The exception is those who think their “truth” is the only truth and insist others recognize it. The same is true for the more adamant atheists who carry their disdain for all religion and beliefs on their sleeve.

Some years ago I came to the conclusion that if there was any “word of god” it wasn’t in any book. It could only be what the Bible describes as the Holy Spirit. Several personal powerful experiences keep me leaning in the direction that there is a something more that we have yet to comprehend and we only catch glimpses of.

If I was going to try and describe this indescribable something I might say it is the something that connects us all and perhaps a Universal Consciousness that we all have a connection with, and through. The Bible uses the analogy of parts of the same body and this oneness, spoken of in many religious traditions seems to hold true even as we make scientific advances. As we as a race strive to move forward we see more in our sense of , progress ,justice and well being within a society and within the human race, that we do better when we look out for each other and treat the “part of the same body” analogy as a fact. Throughout history man protects and looks out for his own and is eventually brought to the understanding that “our own” is broader than originally thought.
My own experiences have left me wondering about the source of knowledge, understanding, and insight as well as our emotions. This Universal Consciousness seems to more than knowledge and intellect but also our more positive emotions. Compassion, forgiveness, love, courage, among others. If has, at times, felt to me like tapping into something greater than myself, and at times of a deep connection with others, connecting together with them.
It does not feel like something that requires homage but more like something that is always there and available if only we can learn to appreciate and live within that connection.

More recently the thing that pleases me is the realization that it is completely unnecessary to speculate about what may or may not happen after this physical life. If we can live this moment and this life as best we can, striving to improve ourselves and being a more positive influence in the world around us, the rest doesn’t matter. When we focus on the more positive principles rather than dogma we find common ground with more people and less reasons to let details we don’t really “know” anyway separate us as people.

[adhay]

@cosmosdan

Okay , I tried to type a somewhat lengthy response a couple of days ago and somehow it just disappeared. Maybe God doesn’t want me to post in this thread
…

More recently the thing that pleases me is the realization that it is completely unnecessary to speculate about what may or may not happen after this physical life. If we can live this moment and this life as best we can, striving to improve ourselves and being a more positive influence in the world around us, the rest doesn’t matter. When we focus on the more positive principles rather than dogma we find common ground with more people and less reasons to let details we don’t really “know” anyway separate us as people.

Thanks for some air.

[Zanthor]

@mswas

Time isn’t irrelevant. It’s premature to believe that. At a certain point you get to that state of timelessness and you think it is something significant. It is and it isn’t, because eternity doesn’t need you. You exist in a finite time-based existance. Without that finite time-based existance there is no you to be here saying these things and no me to be saying them to.

You’ll notice how filled with time-obsessed jargon your speech is. Clearly it’s relevant or you wouldn’t be using it. Why would pot or LSD go out with the 60s and why on Earth would you think they they ‘went out’ with the 60s? Why do you think that the shamanistic use of externally consumed neurotransmitters was ever a fad? Do you think that there has ever been a moment in our history where someone wasn’t tripping on something? Really? If time doesn’t matter why do you think that psychedelic drugs are rooted in a temporal fad?

I clearly indicated that when our present 3 score and 10 lifespan is minuscule when the passage of time, or timelessness is considered.
Irrelevant may have been a poor choice of the descriptive bit but i think it describes well enough the huge yawning gap of what actually is, our limited lifespan, trapped in time, we think, with what really actually is, eternity, billions of years old, but viewed in an instant when the body no longer confines…

Quote. You’ll notice how filled with time-obsessed jargon your speech is…

i was writing to the lowest common factor, so it would be easy to understand.
so how about you lose the labels huh?
If you think you are above that, fine, but plz don’t broadcast it, otherwise it appears you simply want a psting contest, which as you probably know, is def bad Karma. and not an exchange of ideas, dare i say it, knowledge?, insight?,
Quote.
Why would pot or LSD go out with the 60s and why on Earth would you think they they ‘went out’ with the 60s

Because what i have seen since then is no longer multitudes of Seekers of “The Path” using sacraments for insight, knowledge.
willing to give freely, but rather take, be right, wage war against many souls.
yet claim Righteousness…
for them
what else is left then?
for what reason do ppl seek alternate lifestyles, ie sacraments, if not mainly to seek Spirit?
for ‘fun’, for kicks? just what exactly???

do you seriously doubt this?
We are all Fakirs, in hiding somehow.
of what was, should be, will perhaps never be again?
( Led Zep )
what will your contribution be to understanding be?
Pray tell???

Most ppl I think don’t even know Spirit exists, drugs or no drugs, let alone understand that there is only One Spirit, and they are part of it?
are one with it,
over to you.
Peace, forever… ( and a day )

Zanthor

[cosmosdan]

And Now for a musical interlude

[mswas]

Zanthor This is a forum for debate, so you are going to get hard-edged debates, that’s just the tone. I doubt I will soften mine much, it’s just not my approach around these parts.

Basically my point is that experiencing eternity is often presented as this grand message, but it’s sort of spirituality 101. This is what happens when you just appear and say, “I am here to teach.”, you get immediately challenged, it’s just the way it goes. Don’t take it personally, if you’re ready to teach then you’ll be up to the challenge, if you’re here to learn, shut up, if you’re here to share then pull up a log and sit amongst the seekers as an equal.

These ideas such as eternity and that life is short are not ideas that are particularly hidden or mysterious I think everyone is pretty aware of it, jazzing it up with esoteric speak just overcomplicates things. (IMO)

The hardest part of spiritual growth is knowing how to speak to people at their level of knowledge and how to teach them the lesson that will hit and resonate with them. A lot of people default to ‘Eternity, life is short!’, to which my response will always be, “Well duh.”

[cosmosdan]

@mswas

Zanthor This is a forum for debate, so you are going to get hard-edged debates, that’s just the tone. I doubt I will soften mine much, it’s just not my approach around these parts.

Basically my point is that experiencing eternity is often presented as this grand message, but it’s sort of spirituality 101. This is what happens when you just appear and say, “I am here to teach.”, you get immediately challenged, it’s just the way it goes. Don’t take it personally, if you’re ready to teach then you’ll be up to the challenge, if you’re here to learn, shut up, if you’re here to share then pull up a log and sit amongst the seekers as an equal.

These ideas such as eternity and that life is short are not ideas that are particularly hidden or mysterious I think everyone is pretty aware of it, jazzing it up with esoteric speak just overcomplicates things. (IMO)

The hardest part of spiritual growth is knowing how to speak to people at their level of knowledge and how to teach them the lesson that will hit and resonate with them. A lot of people default to ‘Eternity, life is short!’, to which my response will always be, “Well duh.”

well said.

[monavis]

@JThunder

You continue to miss the point, monavis. As I have repeatedly (REPEATEDLY!) told you, the problem is not that you disagree with me. Rather, the problem is that your conclusion does not logically follow from your interpretation.

Furthermore, while you might personally EXPECT that God would manifest himself materially to Moses, it does not logically follow that God WOULD manifest himself in that manner. Expectation, as even the youngest child quickly learns, is not the same as reality. God could have appeared to be material without actually having a material essence.

And furthermore, even if God DID manifest himself materially, it does not logically follow that God is inherently material. One could just as easily expect that he temporarily adopted a material presence on those occasions. This would not mean that he was material in his essence.

These things have been pointed out to you over and over and over again. And how do you respond? By saying “Why are you so upset that someone disagrees with you? Why? Why?” I can only conclude that you are desperately trying to save face at this point, and so you want to offer some sort of reply – any old response. A response, sadly, is not the same as a rebuttal.

I had no idea you were a mind reader, and can know a person’s intent. You can not see my point because you are letting your point blind you to what I am saying.You never did answer by what authority you base your opinion on, I made a statement that the OT had moses asking God to let him see God, but since if he saw the face of God he could not live, so God supposedly showed him His back. It is just a story like any other story and if it makes you feel good to believe it that is just teaching a lesson fine with me. I do not get upset about any story weither it is called the Word of God by some or not. I believe I am still free to think my own thoughts as well as everyone else,and you also are free to think your own.

I could say,“By Jove I now get it. A non proven material being, asks a non material being to let him see his face, and the invisible being says.‘I cant let you see my face as I have none, but I can show you my invisible(Non material back)’. Now the non proven material being sees the invisible non material being with his supposed material eyes and all is well”. Of course it is just a story like so many others.I take it with a grain of salt. Of course the OT wants one to believe it really happened or is just teaching a lesson . You choose to believe it as you want to so I say,“believe as you wish”.

[JThunder]

@monavis

I had no idea you were a mind reader, and can know a person’s intent.

You don’t have to be a mind reader when the intent is obvious. The fact that you keep repeating “But my interpretation is still possible! It’s still possible!” demonstrates this.

[Zanthor]

@mswas

Zanthor This is a forum for debate, so you are going to get hard-edged debates, that’s just the tone. I doubt I will soften mine much, it’s just not my approach around these parts.

Basically my point is that experiencing eternity is often presented as this grand message, but it’s sort of spirituality 101. This is what happens when you just appear and say, “I am here to teach.”, you get immediately challenged, it’s just the way it goes. Don’t take it personally, if you’re ready to teach then you’ll be up to the challenge, if you’re here to learn, shut up, if you’re here to share then pull up a log and sit amongst the seekers as an equal.

These ideas such as eternity and that life is short are not ideas that are particularly hidden or mysterious I think everyone is pretty aware of it, jazzing it up with esoteric speak just overcomplicates things. (IMO)

The hardest part of spiritual growth is knowing how to speak to people at their level of knowledge and how to teach them the lesson that will hit and resonate with them. A lot of people default to ‘Eternity, life is short!’, to which my response will always be, “Well duh.”

well, now, here is a huge diff to begin with.

i will become soft to the extreme, shirt, coat, give, what more do you need from me?
Just to lose the aggressive must be 1st, win, conquer mindset.
( Not referring to you personally, just referencing common desire to win at all costs, be right, prove all others wrong, esp as in our case, Muslims… )

Not sure why you say, i am here to teach?
I thought i was here to explore.
I have no need nor desire to adopt a fabricated ‘higher ground’ to preach from.

What i offered was, a What If?
as in
We are in fact all God, all creation is, experiancing time and physical reality and its supposed confines?

What if, Our enemies are us, what then?
When we slaughter to consume dead flesh, or simply Conquer and Dominate,
Iran, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc etc etc
do we revere the life we take, or do we just pat ourselves on the back as to how powerful ( and greedy ) we are?
and how weak, easily dominated, ‘they’ are?

are we then still, Holy in the best Christian tradition of love your enemy?
Compassion and Mercy as Karl Marx, Jesus, Buddha etc etc, did teach. have any relevance at all to our desire to be 1st?
to rule, dominate, consume???

I see very little Hope when all claim righteousness and justification for slaughter, based on Fear, and a desire to Dominate.
i am still awaiting an honest answer worth debating

Are we Gods or Men?
Short Memory… ( TM )
Midnight Oil…

[monavis]

@JThunder

You don’t have to be a mind reader when the intent is obvious. The fact that you keep repeating “But my interpretation is still possible! It’s still possible!” demonstrates this.

Yes, my intrepretation is as valid as yours, it is just that and intrepretation of a story that most likely never happened. You do not know my intent. My intent was to show that Moses expected to see something material or he wouldn’t have asked. In those days the gods were seen ,like some worshiped the sun,some golden idols, they all had something they thought was god even some another human. Moses being of that time(although it is unlikely that he was a historical being) expected his god to have a material side;otherwise why ask to have this god show hiself!

I do not expect you or anyone to accept my intrepretation. Any intrepretation can be possible but since it is an intrepretation it doesn’t have to be fact!