# God as Parent. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874 "2008-03-10T20:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/41 "2008-03-11T21:36:54Z")
All the western religions teach that the goal of each human’s spiritual development is to become like God. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/42 "2008-03-11T21:45:36Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] We can acknowledge that an omnipotent god could reach in and change our consciousness so that we don’t have to go through such extreme experiences. IMO that’s a different issue. Perhaps we volunteered to come and experience physical reality not knowing every detail but knowing we would find our way back. I think thats some of that non useful speculation \*\*begbert \*\*spoke of. Let’s also keep in mind that if we are spiritual beings experiencing a temporary physical reality then our godly parent knows that no matter what we experience here we are ultimately safe. [/QUOTE] The _troubling_ (not ‘non-useful’) speculation I mentioned in my post above referred to ideas like large segments of the populations suffering for no better purpose than to be an object lesson, or people being actually being hurt and killed just because God wants to twit with their relatives’ emotions. (Or were you referring to something I said in another thread?) I think it’s worth noting that, if our painful life-changing experinces here are considered unimportant to ‘us’ once we shake off this earthly coil, it seems to me that the ‘us’ on heaven would have to be a totally different entity than the ‘us’ here on earth, with the earth-us being nothing more than a puppet or playing piece that nobody ‘real’ up there in heaven gives a rectal emission about. We’re not the kid; we’re the hamster the kid puts in the microwave. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/43 "2008-03-11T22:34:20Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] All the western religions teach that the goal of each human’s spiritual development is to become like God. [/QUOTE] Not the one I grew up in, and I doubt any outside of \*\*Stranger in a Strange Land. \*\* How can we become like an omnipotent omniscient deity? Plus, remember the story of the Tower of Babel. I can make a cheap joke about not wanting to flood my neighborhood, but I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/44 "2008-03-11T22:43:16Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] In curing some diseases, we’ve created others. Take the disinfectant-resistant bacteria for example. [/quote] But we have gained a massive net loss of diseases. [QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] I’d be interested in hearing you point to a democracy that you consider to be a good thing and not inherently corrupt. [/quote] All human organizations of an significant size and duration are going to be corrupt, since they are made of corruptible humans. That doesn’t mean that some organizations are not much, much better than others. [QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] The Bible says people used to live for hundreds of years and that God established a rule of law, but you obviously won’t buy that. [/QUOTE] As pointed out, the Bible is full of lies. [QUOTE=Voyager] Bush just vetoed a bill against torture and you say we’re waking up? You’re an optimist, my friend. (The nightmare part I give you.) [/QUOTE] An aberration, compared to the general historical trend. [QUOTE=ITR champion] Some of our atheist friends assert that all human life was misery all the time until quite recently. I find that claim preposterous even by atheist standards. Let’s definie the terms. Happiness is a mental state within the individual, not a set of conditions outside the individual. [/QUOTE] Which is strongly affected by the external world. People who are starving or dying of gruesome diseases or being tortured are seldom happy. And the greater influence of religion in the past was another source of unhappiness, especially Christianity. Which is all about hatred of oneself and others, and of virtually everything that brings happiness or pleasure. You won’t find much happiness in a society nearly completely controlled by a religion dedicated to promoting misery. Part of the nightmare we have been waking up from is the nightmare of societies controlled by religion; the rise of secularism is a great boon to humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/45 "2008-03-11T22:58:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Nobody has kept us in a cage, except maybe we ourselves. God is more of the “hands off” type of parent. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t seem to help. The line between “hands off” parent and “bad” parent needs some clarification. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/46 "2008-03-12T17:59:36Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] The _troubling_ (not ‘non-useful’) speculation I mentioned in my post above referred to ideas like large segments of the populations suffering for no better purpose than to be an object lesson, or people being actually being hurt and killed just because God wants to twit with their relatives’ emotions. (Or were you referring to something I said in another thread?) [/QUOTE] I’m not sure anymore. I think the complex interconnection of events and consequences prevents us from saying people are hurt or killed just to teach a lesson to other specific people. > [@](#): > > I think it’s worth noting that, if our painful life-changing experinces here are considered unimportant to ‘us’ once we shake off this earthly coil, it seems to me that the ‘us’ on heaven would have to be a totally different entity than the ‘us’ here on earth, with the earth-us being nothing more than a puppet or playing piece that nobody ‘real’ up there in heaven gives a rectal emission about. We’re not the kid; we’re the hamster the kid puts in the microwave. What? Is that conclusion any more likely than it’s opposite? I don’t have to dwell on my father’s death and stop laughing and enjoying life to note that it was a significant event that shaped my attitudes in part. The concept that our physical bodies may be temporary doesn’t mean we don’t care about them or that we are puppets. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/47 "2008-03-12T18:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Not the one I grew up in, and I doubt any outside of \*\*Stranger in a Strange Land. \*\* How can we become like an omnipotent omniscient deity? Plus, remember the story of the Tower of Babel. I can make a cheap joke about not wanting to flood my neighborhood, but I won’t. [/QUOTE] too late > [@](#): > > Matthew 5:48 > Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/48 "2008-03-12T18:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I think the complex interconnection of events and consequences prevents us from saying people are hurt or killed just to teach a lesson to other specific people. [/QUOTE] Well, as I said, this theory would be a patch on the already unstable parent analogy. Myself, I reject all of it. [QUOTE=cosmosdan] What? Is that conclusion any more likely than it’s opposite? I don’t have to dwell on my father’s death and stop laughing and enjoying life to note that it was a significant event that shaped my attitudes in part. The concept that our physical bodies may be temporary doesn’t mean we don’t care about them or that we are puppets. [/QUOTE] Your position relies on the theory that _every_ hardship can be overcome, by _everybody_. (Or that God doesn’t care about those who can’t make the cut, which is another valid persective held by many religions.) If ‘getting over’ our hardships is an _automatic_ result of passing on to some ‘next world’, regardless of how tightly we’ve been clinging to our trauma up until that point, then our earth lives necessarily have an unreality in that larger scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/49 "2008-03-12T21:42:44Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] too late [/QUOTE] 😃 As for your quote, I guess that zaps the “Christians are not perfect, just forgiven” bumper sticker. If someone was perfect, would they need to get absolution from Jesus? I thought the doctrine of original sin meant that no one could be perfect, ie sin free. If it said, strive for perfection, I could see it. That seems to be the theological equivalent of a parent telling his kids to get 100’s on all their tests. That’s bad parenting, so your quote is another brick in the wall. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/50 "2008-03-12T22:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Your position relies on the theory that _every_ hardship can be overcome, by _everybody_. (Or that God doesn’t care about those who can’t make the cut, which is another valid persective held by many religions.) If ‘getting over’ our hardships is an _automatic_ result of passing on to some ‘next world’, regardless of how tightly we’ve been clinging to our trauma up until that point, then our earth lives necessarily have an unreality in that larger scheme of things. [/QUOTE] My thought is that a part of growth is letting go of past experiences. That doesn’t mean they don’t count at all. I’m not 20 years old anymore but those experiences are a part of who I am. I don’t cling to them or dwell on them but they are not unreal or devalued as they pass. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/51 "2008-03-12T23:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] 😃 As for your quote, I guess that zaps the “Christians are not perfect, just forgiven” bumper sticker. If someone was perfect, would they need to get absolution from Jesus? [/QUOTE] If we’re talking about “I’m saved and you’re not because you don’t believe the correct things” I find that brand of Christianity distasteful. My reading of the NT leads me to think that Jesus encouraged us to walk a path that included continued growth. IMO opinion belief in Christ means belief that the goal, like the standards he set in the SOM, is achievable. > [@](#): > > I thought the doctrine of original sin meant that no one could be perfect, ie sin free. If it said, strive for perfection, I could see it. That’s pretty much how I take it. > [@](#): > > 1 Cor 13:9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. > > 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. > [@](#): > > 2 Cor. 13:11Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you. > [@](#): > > Hebrews 6 > > 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God, > [@](#): > > That seems to be the theological equivalent of a parent telling his kids to get 100’s on all their tests. That’s bad parenting, so your quote is another brick in the wall. Not if it’s possible and the way is prepared to achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/52 "2008-03-13T00:31:42Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] If we’re talking about “I’m saved and you’re not because you don’t believe the correct things” I find that brand of Christianity distasteful. My reading of the NT leads me to think that Jesus encouraged us to walk a path that included continued growth. IMO opinion belief in Christ means belief that the goal, like the standards he set in the SOM, is achievable. [/quote] I find the rapture bumper stickers worse. I think those are admitting the person may do bad things, which is a bit humble, at least. It does have the component that they’ll wind up in a better place, which is indeed obnoxious, but that’s at the very heart of Christianity. > [@](#): > > That’s pretty much how I take it. > > Not if it’s possible and the way is prepared to achieve it. Telling a kid to do her best and to strive for 100 is far different from the Matthew quote which orders us to get 100 all the time. I thought Jesus was the only perfect human (thought the fig tree disagreed, no doubt.) I’m talking of perfection before death, of course. Unless you have a very loose definition of perfection, I can’t see how it is realistically obtainable - and setting unrealistic goals is exactly the problem. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/53 "2008-03-13T15:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Telling a kid to do her best and to strive for 100 is far different from the Matthew quote which orders us to get 100 all the time. I thought Jesus was the only perfect human (thought the fig tree disagreed, no doubt.) I’m talking of perfection before death, of course. Unless you have a very loose definition of perfection, I can’t see how it is realistically obtainable - and setting unrealistic goals is exactly the problem. [/QUOTE] I think considering JCs audience his point was to get them to look beyond superficial obedience to dogma and ritual but to look within for real change and growth. That process is still incomplete. I don’t see the Matthew quote as a “and do it right now” kind of commandment. Do you think a lifetime of learning and growth is a realistic goal? An achievable one? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/54 "2008-03-14T06:08:35Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I think considering JCs audience his point was to get them to look beyond superficial obedience to dogma and ritual but to look within for real change and growth. That process is still incomplete. I don’t see the Matthew quote as a “and do it right now” kind of commandment. Do you think a lifetime of learning and growth is a realistic goal? An achievable one? [/QUOTE] The goal of learning and growth is like striving for perfection. That’s different from being told to achieve it. If you are told that lifetime learning is a good thing, you’d agree. If you were told that you should know everything, you’d reject it for being unrealistic. Given the dubious provenance of the Jesus quotes, I don’t think we say what Jesus meant, if he ever said that at all. More likely that quote was by the author of Matthew, or perhaps a misquote from another source. This guy was not the most accurate of all the four Gospel writers, after all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/55 "2008-03-14T13:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] The goal of learning and growth is like striving for perfection. That’s different from being told to achieve it. If you are told that lifetime learning is a good thing, you’d agree. If you were told that you should know everything, you’d reject it for being unrealistic. [/QUOTE] Correct. > [@](#): > > Given the dubious provenance of the Jesus quotes, I don’t think we say what Jesus meant, if he ever said that at all. More likely that quote was by the author of Matthew, or perhaps a misquote from another source. This guy was not the most accurate of all the four Gospel writers, after all. Also true. The quotes are only food for thought regardless of their source. Another quote was brought up months ago that I thought was interesting. The rich young man in Mat 19 > [@](#): > > 16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” > 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” > 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. > Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]" > 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?” > 21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” > 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. I find it interesting that Jesus seemed content with what the young man was doing but when pressed he told him what more he could do. That is, if he said that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/56 "2008-03-14T16:47:11Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I find it interesting that Jesus seemed content with what the young man was doing but when pressed he told him what more he could do. That is, if he said that at all. [/QUOTE] And if the man had done it, what else would Jesus want of him? I don’t know if the Disciples gave up all their worldly goods to follow Jesus, but they were hardly perfect even so. It just shows it is futile to expect consistency and logic from the Bible. The writers seem to have been able to put down the most absurd things. Maybe one with better reasoning abilities tried to write a gospel, and then gave it up in frustration and hid in a cave somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874/57 "2008-03-14T17:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] And if the man had done it, what else would Jesus want of him? I don’t know if the Disciples gave up all their worldly goods to follow Jesus, but they were hardly perfect even so. [/QUOTE] I took it that Jesus was talking about our degree of dedication in pursuing perfection not that giving up possessions automatically makes it so. Whatever progress we make as individuals in this generation affects our influence on those around us and in turn the next generation and the next. > [@](#): > > It just shows it is futile to expect consistency and logic from the Bible. The writers seem to have been able to put down the most absurd things. Maybe one with better reasoning abilities tried to write a gospel, and then gave it up in frustration and hid in a cave somewhere. or the church burned them as heresy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-as-parent/440874.md?page=2)