# God Bless Ronald Wilson Reagan ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886 "2004-06-06T00:38:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/81 "2004-06-06T04:43:10Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > What nonaggression treaty did we have with Poland before Germany invaded? What on earth do you MEAN? What does THAT have to do with anything? šŸ˜• What does that have to do with anything? Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, the Allies declared War (Britain, France and the USSR) and WWII began. The US did not enter until two years later. WE entered because we were attacked by Japan, and Hitler declared war on us because the Japanese were his allies. Are you saying that Hitler invading Poland was no big deal? ---
**Author:** ![SallyStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SallyStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SallyStar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/82 "2004-06-06T04:44:21Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > AFAIR, I donā€™t think we had one with Kuwait, either. Does that mean the first Gulf War was ā€œpreemptive,ā€ in your view? Yes, not only that, a "_War of Choice"._ ---
**Author:** ![SallyStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SallyStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SallyStar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/83 "2004-06-06T04:49:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you saying that Hitler invading Poland was no big deal? No, I didnā€™t say that. The war against Hitler/Germany was a preemptive and/or ā€œWar of Choice.ā€ The war against the Japanese (cleaned it up) was a result of a direct attack. Prove me wrong ā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/84 "2004-06-06T04:52:27Z")
It would appear that **SallyStar** has very little grasp of the language, so I guess we should go easy on her. She believes that the first Gulf War was preemptive. We can only conclude either that she simply doesnā€™t understand what the word means, or that she has no idea what actually occurred. Based upon some of her other ā€œresponses,ā€ I think the former is much more likely than the latter. Maybe if we stick to very, very simple statements: **SallyStar** , if you think that someone is going to do something bad, and you hit him before he does the bad thing, thatā€™s ā€œpreemptive.ā€ If heā€™s already done the bad thing, and _then_ you hit him, thatā€™s not ā€œpreemptive.ā€ Which part of this do you not grasp? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/85 "2004-06-06T04:55:21Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > You donā€™t have to hijack it ā€¦ Johnson, Carter and Clinton šŸ˜› What positions did you hold in the Johnson, Carter, and Clinton administrations that qualify you to make this assessment? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/86 "2004-06-06T04:57:27Z")
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The war against Hitler was started by Britain, France and the USSR IN REACTION to his invasion of Poland. WE only went against Hitler because he declared war on us. That is REACTIVE, honeybunch. REactive. Not PROactive. Not preemptive. We merely just joined in what others had started. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/87 "2004-06-06T05:02:23Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Be careful what you wish for. whapp, whapp!! Thanks, I needed thatā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/88 "2004-06-06T05:06:21Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > No, I didnā€™t say that. The war against Hitler/Germany was a preemptive and/or ā€œWar of Choice.ā€ The war against the Japanese (cleaned it up) was a result of a direct attack. Prove me wrong ā€¦ Okay. [Here](http://207.61.100.164/cantext/wwii/1941usde.html) is the text of FDRā€™s message to Congress asking for war to be declared on Germany, and Congressā€™s official declaration of war. > [@FDR](#): > > On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. > > ā€¦ > > Italy also has declared war against the United States. > > I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy. > [@Congress](#): > > Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America: > > ā€¦ > > ā€¦the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declaredā€¦ World War II was about as non-preemptive as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/89 "2004-06-06T05:09:39Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > And just what office have you held in the congress or executive branch? Itā€™s amazing to me that do nothings can be so critical of those who really do something, like a **President**! Um, Iā€™d have to go back and dig through some boxes of stuff to be sure, but I donā€™t think that Iā€™ve held **any** office in congress or the executive branch. Am I following you here? Are you saying that Iā€™m only allowed to criticize if Iā€™ve done as much as a President? Which one? Bush _fils_? I only **wish** I could get that much vacation time. Clinton? Well, I have received oral lovinā€™, but never done that cigar thing. Bush _pere_? Well, I **did** once throw up on a Japanese person, but Iā€™m way too smooth and coordinated to ever flail and jerk around so much. Reagan, late of this earth and destined for sainthood? Could never get the hang of sleeping through staff meetings. I have tried, though. Seriously, yer OP was a mealy mouthed steaming pile of crap. Virtually every thing that you have spewed all over this thread is a continuation of same. Youā€™ve done nothing to demonstrate your ability to debate, let alone tell what is and is not debateable (note, on preview you have conceded that your OP was not debateable. Usually that sort of thing is noted well before the thread gets into its second page, but what the hell and all like that) or really anything. I repeat, ā€œdamn!ā€ ---
**Author:** ![SallyStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SallyStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SallyStar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/90 "2004-06-06T05:12:55Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Youā€™ve done nothing to demonstrate your ability to debate, let alone tell what is and is not debateable (note, on preview you have conceded that your OP was not debateable. Usually that sort of thing is noted well before the thread gets into its second page, but what the hell and all like that) or really anything. > > I repeat, ā€œdamn!ā€ Oh, with a GED I have to struggle you know ā€¦ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/91 "2004-06-06T05:14:25Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > I know _microscopic thermodynamics_, but you never answered if Hitler in Europe had to be stopped immediately after Pearl Harbor? We didnā€™t have a choice. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, Nazi Germany formally declared war on the United States of America. We only declared war on Japan. We didnā€™t go to war with Germany until they declared war formally on us. ---
**Author:** ![SallyStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SallyStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SallyStar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/92 "2004-06-06T05:21:27Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > We didnā€™t have a choice. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, Nazi Germany formally declared war on the United States of America. We only declared war on Japan. We didnā€™t go to war with Germany until they declared war formally on us. The point is OBL declared war on us. Did we immeadiately declare war on him and what did we do about it? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/93 "2004-06-06T05:21:56Z")
In an attempt to do ā€¦ I dunnoā€¦ somethingā€¦ with the OP, Iā€™ll note that John Kerryā€™s site ([www.johnkerry.com](http://www.johnkerry.com)) has placed a prominent memorial to Reagan on itā€™s front page. While George W. Bush ([www.georgewbush.com](http://www.georgewbush.com)) has not. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/94 "2004-06-06T05:22:32Z")
OK. We now know that **Sally** believes that - Johnson, Carter, and Clinton were actually worse presidents than Fillmore, Van Buren, Grant, and Harding (even though she has never served in a cabinet position, so (based on her criteria) has no qualifications to judge them), - responding to a declaration of war from another foreign power is ā€œpre-emptive,ā€ and - posting a muddled one-line question at the end of an expression of sympathy is a Great Debate. It really is taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/95 "2004-06-06T05:25:36Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > The point is OBL declared war on us. Did we immeadiately declare war on him and what did we do about it? Iā€™m not sure quite what youā€™re even getting at here, but Osama Bin Laden is, with very few exceptions, not a country. In particular, he is not the country of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/96 "2004-06-06T05:31:27Z")
> [@SallyStar](#): > > Do you know **Starving Artist** , you are the first one who has been even slightly considerate to me here. Maybe I should have noticed you also. ā˜¹ Iā€™m still thinking of signing up, but I donā€™t know if I will be ever part of one of the cliqueā€™s or tag teamā€™s here. Thanks šŸ™‚ Iā€™m sorry to hear that I was the first person to be considerate to you, but I can assure you the overwhelming majority of people here are very kind and thoughtful people. Many of them are also highly educated. You can usually get an answer to almost any question on any subject in a matter of minutes, or hours at worst. This board isnā€™t really very cliquish either, and the tag team activity that goes on usually involves only 6 or 8 people of like minds who enjoy piling on to anyone posting something they donā€™t like. If you want to see what the Straight Dope and its members are really like I would suggest you go GQ, MPSIMS, Cafe Society or IMHO. Check the threads going back two or three pages and read the postings on the subjects you find that are compelling. I think this will give you a much more accurate idea of the SDMB and its members than you have found so far in the Pit and Great Debates. I hope you will decide to sign up. And oh, yeahā€¦welcome to the SDMB. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/97 "2004-06-06T05:32:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The point is OBL declared war on us. Did we immeadiately declare war on him and what did we do about it? Well, first we demanded that Afghanistan surrender him to us for trial. When they refused, we took the appropriate steps to isolate them from the international community, then took steps to remove the ruling Taliban (who had actively supported bin Laden) from power. Of course, following that action, we abandoned Afghanistan to the war lords whose abuses had allowed the Taliban to take power in the first place and went haring after Saddam Hussein who had nothing to do with bin Laden or the attack on the WTC and Pentagon. Since then, we have tied up a huge percentage of our military trying to keep our occupation of Iraq afloat. (Of course, we are actually using _more_ of our military, now, because the current administration insisted on using fewer troops, initially, than the JCS had actually sought for the mission. So, instead of truly attaining our objective (regardless that we had no business going in) with a large force and then withdrawing, we are now committing far more troops piecemeal over a longer period of time.) Arenā€™t you glad you asked the question? Now you have learned something. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/98 "2004-06-06T05:35:46Z")
No, see, blanquito, I donā€™t really think youā€™re quite as ignorant as you make yourself appear. Although, Iā€™m willing to be dissuaded. And I see that **elfbabe** has already pointed out to you that bin Laden is not a country, not even Afghanistan, not even Iraq and very probably not even Syria. But we might need to check on that last. . . And **Tom** forgot Wilson, so Iā€™ll just insert him into the mix. Well, heā€™s **my** favorite worst president in history, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/99 "2004-06-06T05:36:08Z")
I should also add that the pile-ons that do occur are just like the ones on panel shows on television: four or five liberals piling on one conservative. Add another conservative and youā€™ll get another four or five liberals, etc. (And Btw, Iā€™ve never seen a pile-on that consisted of conservatives piling on a liberal. Itā€™s always the other way around. :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![SallyStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SallyStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SallyStar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886/100 "2004-06-06T05:39:00Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I should also add that the pile-ons that do occur are just like the ones on panel shows on television: four or five liberals piling on one conservative. Add another conservative and youā€™ll get another four or five liberals, etc. > > (And Btw, Iā€™ve never seen a pile-on that consisted of conservatives piling on a liberal. Itā€™s always the other way around. :rolleyes: ) I know, Iā€™m really getting piled on in the Pit, have to get back to it ā€¦ šŸ™‚ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-bless-ronald-wilson-reagan/248886.md?page=6)