# God damn it, Democrats! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592 "2016-06-28T05:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/21 "2016-06-28T13:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > In a statement, Sanders said he was “disappointed and dismayed” that representatives of Hillary Clinton and DNC chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schulz rejected the proposal on trade put forth by Sanders appointee Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), despite the fact that the presumed nominee has herself come out against the 12-nation deal. > > “Inexplicable” was how Sanders described the move, adding: “It is hard for me to understand why Secretary Clinton’s delegates won’t stand behind Secretary Clinton’s positions in the party’s platform.” Uh-oh. The Bernster is pissed. Which means the finger waggling won’t stop any time soon!! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/22 "2016-06-28T14:01:57Z")
Even though there’s a real issue here to consider we’re not going to be able to make sense out of the party positions and statements in the midst of a presidential election. Bernie doesn’t have to walk the tightrope of public opinion any more because he’s not going to be a candidate in the fall, Hillary still has to continue the game, we’ll have no idea where she stands, if she stands, on any issue not guaranteed to bring in votes for her. The next problem to face is the growing length of election seasons, as they begin to run one into another like the retail holiday sales we’ll lose any chance to find out where the politicians and parties stand on issues as they remain in non-stop election mode. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/23 "2016-06-28T14:20:28Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > It seems like gay marriage is a good but tough example to follow. Most are now in favor of gay marriage, but it took time to get the public to accept it. Was that fair to the many people who had to wait, perhaps even die, before they had the opportunity to marry? Of course not. But if a president had come out in favor of gay marriage 25 years ago he might well have experienced a severe backlash, and so might the movement. > > The voters claims to want “change,” But in reality they seem slow to actually accept specifics. So I think a Progressive’s plan should be to continue to spread the message and convince the public, over time, that certain changes are right. Keep finding voices like Sanders and Warren and others to promote the message. Being correct is ultimately a very strong position hand to hold. But, alas, so many good things still take time. Frustrating, but there it is. > > The powerful and the wealthy are well-positioned to avoid revolution. Not so much with evolution. Lets be clear. The voters want change, but they want someone else to pay for it. Free college - wonderful. Free college if my taxes go up - ummmm…maybe not. Universal Heath Care? Great. What, I’m going to lose my employers plan and have to pay more in taxes? - I don’t think so. Fracking - its horrible - but so are high energy and gas prices…maybe a little fracking in parts of the country no one cares about if it keeps my bills low. So Progressives want to tax the rich - the problem is that the rich are rich - they can move to low taxation countries and never return. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/24 "2016-06-28T14:37:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Lets be clear. The voters want change, but they want someone else to pay for it. Free college - wonderful. Free college if my taxes go up - ummmm…maybe not. Universal Heath Care? Great. What, I’m going to lose my employers plan and have to pay more in taxes? - I don’t think so. Fracking - its horrible - but so are high energy and gas prices…maybe a little fracking in parts of the country no one cares about if it keeps my bills low. > > So Progressives want to tax the rich - the problem is that the rich are rich - they can move to low taxation countries and never return. Yes. Often a person wanting “change” means they want things to change for the better for them, personally. But in the long run educating those who cannot afford it, protecting the environment, and providing universal health care …those ideas are all in the best interest of most people. But big change means overcoming small but stubborn ideas. These changes will eventually come about, but it is going to take time, and new generations to get us where we need to be. I wish we could alter those things today, but I think we are going to have to get there in increments. Never lose the vision or despair that it takes so long to achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/25 "2016-06-28T14:59:32Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Does every election \*have \*to pull us one way or the other? > > Apparently, there’s no one who will be happy unless the new administration jumps several points (or more) in some direction from the 'orrid, awrful “status quo.” But the tendency, election after election, is to vote pretty centrist. So maybe what we get is both exactly what we (collectively) want and (in the whole) need: continuation until change is possible, not _ahem_ radical shifts by electorate. We’re not getting centrism though, we just get opportunists wearing the cloak of centrism. The two sides keep trading places as the party of no ideas and the party of bad ideas, and no progress is made. Neither party ca maintain power on a centrist platform, so each election is a puppet show. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/26 "2016-06-28T15:17:11Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Yes. Often a person wanting “change” means they want things to change for the better for them, personally. But in the long run educating those who cannot afford it, protecting the environment, and providing universal health care …those ideas are all in the best interest of most people. But big change means overcoming small but stubborn ideas. These changes will eventually come about, but it is going to take time, and new generations to get us where we need to be. I wish we could alter those things today, but I think we are going to have to get there in increments. Never lose the vision or despair that it takes so long to achieve it. Agree, but pragmatism is important - you don’t need a platform that the GOP will nail down as tax and spend. “Elect Hillary and she’ll raise YOUR taxes!” is not the way to win over the middle class and get into office so you can make incremental change. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/27 "2016-06-28T15:22:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We’re not getting centrism though, we just get opportunists wearing the cloak of centrism. The two sides keep trading places as the party of no ideas and the party of bad ideas, and no progress is made. Neither party ca maintain power on a centrist platform, so each election is a puppet show. [del]Right.[/del] Uh, make that ‘correct’ instead. Each party wants to pull things its way and can’t get elected by saying so too overtly, so it postures a more centrist position during election years and strains mightily to change things while it’s in power. That’s just another facet of what I said. I can’t think of a case where I would want - or begin to trust - a truly radical platform, with “truly radical” meaning 20% of its points were contrary to the st-t-s q–. It indicates a party and platform that do not understand either high-level politics or the American people. (When said radicals have an accomplished track record of zero, like, uh, one recent candidate of note, I’m even less inclined.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/28 "2016-06-28T15:38:40Z")
Who cares? Nobody reads the platform except for opposition researchers, nobody pays attention to it after the election. Does anyone take Obama to task for not sticking to the 2008/2012 platforms? Really, all the platforms do is give some work to the delegates before the speeches begin at the conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/29 "2016-06-28T15:39:20Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s someone else’s OPINION, not an actual cite. It’s an opinion piece backed up by a peer reviewed academic paper, but in case you are too lazy to look for the link, [here’s the paper itself (pdf)](http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS1537592714001595a.pdf&code=ef72f78a8383b10f5eecd461067b11c3). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/30 "2016-06-28T15:52:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Also, I’m a liberal/progressive, and support the Trans Pacific Partnership. Trade is good for everyone. I agree, trade is good for everyone. TPP, however, was horrible. It was literally treated as a national secret, [written by industry lobbyists](http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/06/05/confidential-ustr-emails-show-close-industry-involvement-in-tpp-negotiations/) [promoting corporate sovereignty](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160610/04091534671/corporate-sovereignty-finally-enters-political-mainstream.shtml), signed with minimal debate, and with [negligible benefits](https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2016/er0518ll597.htm). > [@](#): > > The model estimated that TPP would have positive effects, albeit small as a percentage of the overall size of the U.S. economy. By year 15 (2032), U.S. annual real income would be $57.3 billion (0.23 percent) higher than the baseline projections, real GDP would be $42.7 billion (0.15 percent) higher, and employment would be 0.07 percent higher (128,000 full-time equivalents). U.S. exports and U.S. imports would be $27.2 billion (1.0 percent) and $48.9 billion (1.1 percent) higher, respectively, relative to baseline projections. U.S. exports to new FTA partners would grow by $34.6 billion (18.7 percent); U.S. imports from those countries would grow by $23.4 billion (10.4 percent). Support free trade. Reject TPP. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/31 "2016-06-28T15:58:04Z")
Pitting the Democratic Party … now that’s imaginative … ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/32 "2016-06-28T16:07:16Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > It’s an opinion piece backed up by a peer reviewed academic paper, but in case you are too lazy to look for the link, [here’s the paper itself (pdf)](http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS12_03%2FS1537592714001595a.pdf&code=ef72f78a8383b10f5eecd461067b11c3). Rest assured that on those exceedingly rare occasions where **d’Anconia** has a legitimate point, he’ll always find a way to make it stupid. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/33 "2016-06-28T16:13:57Z")
As liberal as I am, I’m for winning more than ideological purity. I think those platforms, with the exception of fracking, appeal to more people than nothing. We shouldn’t be mad at the Dems for moderating their positions, we should spend our efforts trying to liberalize people ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/34 "2016-06-28T16:21:18Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I agree, trade is good for everyone. TPP, however, was horrible. It was literally treated as a national secret, [written by industry lobbyists](http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/06/05/confidential-ustr-emails-show-close-industry-involvement-in-tpp-negotiations/) [promoting corporate sovereignty](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160610/04091534671/corporate-sovereignty-finally-enters-political-mainstream.shtml), signed with minimal debate, and with [negligible benefits](https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2016/er0518ll597.htm). > > Support free trade. Reject TPP. OK. Why don’t you tell us which specific provisions from [the actual agreement](https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership) are bad, and why they are bad? I ask this because it just seems like an article of faith on the part of many casual progressives that TPP is bad, usually backed up only by an appeal to authority. Yes, I know Elizabeth Warren and other progressive heroes were against the deal while it was being negotiated and afterward. She and others started to lose me when, instead of staying current on the negotiations and advising the Executive (a role which was quite sensibly limited to lawmakers instead of the general public), they bitched about the “secrecy” of the talks, as if they were just as ignorant of the details and the US negotiating positions as their constituents. (And as if the non-public nature of such multinational negotiations were at all unusual or dangerous.) So, if you could, please tell me where the bad stuff is in [the agreement](https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership), and explain your reasoning. You may very well convince me with a good argument, but as of right now, I see nothing to concern me enormously about TPP. Thanks in advance for your reasoned response. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/35 "2016-06-28T16:42:57Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > What a silly article. Dishonest, too. The best we can do here is to cite “Films for Action”? A site, for the happily uninitiated, filled with half-baked conspiracy theories about electoral fraud, hysterical attacks on Hillary Clinton for daring not to support everything Bernie Sanders supports, and an “editorial stance” that criticizes everything Clinton while uncritically accepting everything Sanders and his supporters have to say. Might as well link to US Uncut or something. Let’s try for a serious news site next time. Uh oh. Now Rick Kitchen will block you and you’ll be sad. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/36 "2016-06-28T17:08:25Z")
[Despite assurances to contrary, intellectual property covered asset for TPP ISDS mechanism](http://www.keionline.org/node/2358) [TPP has provision banning requirements to transfer of or access to source code of software](http://keionline.org/node/2363) From Doctor’s Without Borders (MSF), [Statement by MSF on the official release of the full text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement](http://msfaccess.org/about-us/media-room/press-releases/statement-msf-official-release-full-text-trans-pacific) > [@](#): > > MSF remains gravely concerned about the effects that the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal will have on access to affordable medicines for millions of people, if it is enacted. Today’s official release of the agreed TPP text confirms that the deal will further delay price-lowering generic competition by extending and strengthening monopoly market protections for pharmaceutical companies. Despite claiming to demand “nondiscriminatory treatment of digital products” and “cross border transfer by electric means” of information – an anti-censorship/blocking provision, Malaysian carve-out for internet blocking: > [@](#): > > With respect to existing measures, Malaysia shall not be subject to dispute settlement under Chapter 28 (Dispute Settlement) regarding its obligations under Article 14.4 (NonDiscriminatory Treatment of Digital Products) and Article 14.11 (Cross-Border Transfer of Information by Electronic Means) Copyright, intellectual property, and patent maximalists will all be happy with the agreement, because those are the people who were negotiating and drafting the agreement. Everyone else, not so much. [Thanks to TPP](http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/11/official-release-of-tpp-text-confirms-massive-loss-to-canadian-public-domain/): > [@](#): > > Unchanged from the leaked text is the confirmation of the extension of the term of copyright to life of the author plus an additional 70 years. This marks a 20 year extension in the term of copyright, dealing a massive blow to access to Canadian heritage and resulting in hundreds of millions in cost. For example, there are 22 Governor-General award winning fiction and non-fiction authors whose work will not enter the public domain for decades. These include Margaret Laurence, Gabrielle Roy, Marian Engel, Marshall McLuhan, and Donald Creighton. Ever use a torrent site, or share/listen to an album on YouTube? Be ready for jail time if you are in a signatory country: > [@](#): > > Article 18.77: Criminal Procedures and Penalties > > 1. Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be applied at least in cases of wilful trademark counterfeiting or copyright or related rights piracy on a commercial scale. In respect of wilful copyright or related rights piracy, “on a commercial scale” includes at least: > (a) acts carried out for commercial advantage or financial gain; and > (b) _significant acts, not carried out for commercial advantage or financial gain, that have a substantial prejudicial impact on the interests of the copyright or related rights holder in relation to the marketplace._ One last note - while initially it appeared that the tobacco industry would be carved out from the TPP ISDS mechanism, but it is actually voluntary on a country’s part. Good enough start for a global trade agreement negotiated in secret (meaning that unless one was invited, one had no input on potentially harmful provisions, and those invited were only from a few select industries) and rushed into signing? By the way, my quote on the negligible benefits was from the United States International Trade Commission. > [@](#): > > The United States International Trade Commission is an independent, quasijudicial Federal agency with broad investigative responsibilities on matters of trade. The agency investigates the effects of dumped and subsidized imports on domestic industries and conducts global safeguard investigations. The Commission also adjudicates cases involving imports that allegedly infringe intellectual property rights. Through such proceedings, the agency facilitates a rules-based international trading system. The Commission also serves as a Federal resource where trade data and other trade policy-related information are gathered and analyzed. The information and analysis are provided to the President, the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR), and Congress to facilitate the development of sound and informed U.S. trade policy. The Commission makes most of its information and analysis available to the public to promote understanding of international trade issues. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/37 "2016-06-28T17:28:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Progressives have to learn to accept the reality that moderates exist. We didn’t steal your party; it doesn’t belong to you. QFT! I would expand it even further: Every member of a group of humans larger than, like, four has to learn to accept the reality that other good faith opinions exist about our complicated world. Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil or a shill. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/38 "2016-06-28T17:34:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Uh oh. Now Rick Kitchen will block you and you’ll be sad. 🙂 By the way, the OP calls the actions in question those of the “platform committee,” which of course it isn’t. That committee has yet to meet. This was the work of a drafting committee, which serves in an advisory capacity. The actual committee may, or may not, choose to go with the positions decided on by the majority of this group. I don’t blame the OP for making this error, especially; the headline on the “article,” after all, refers to the “DNC Platform.” You have to actually read the text to realize that this isn’t a done deal. (Not that the text exactly emphasizes it either.) Yet another way in which “Films for Action” chooses to avoid being reality-based. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/39 "2016-06-28T17:58:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Uh oh. Now Rick Kitchen will block you and you’ll be sad. Is there a reason you’re being an asshole, or is it just your default? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592/40 "2016-06-28T18:01:01Z")
Yeah, you’re right, Ulf, I should have clarified what I had posted. The actual platform committee meets to vote on planks at the convention, but this is the committee that is drafting the platform. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damn-it-democrats/758592.md?page=3)