# God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324 "2004-03-15T00:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/341 "2004-03-17T03:47:59Z")
> [@1920s Style Death Ray](#): > > So you believe that they should ignore what they actually want and just do the opposite of what they think AQ wants them to do? > > Most people mature past this line of thought in their early teens. You’re expecting something better from the genius who said this: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I defy you to show me proof that the result of the election in Spain is not going to result in greater, more enthusiastic terrorist activity! Nothing convinced me of the intellectual bankruptcy of those slamming Spain as this line: “prove to me that, in the future, there will be an absence of the increase I’m asserting on purely speculative grounds.” Starving, if you’re pissed off about it, go away for a day or two until you calm down and look at things a little more rationally, because right now, you’re leading the side of the blithering. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/342 "2004-03-17T03:50:54Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > The fact remains, however, that Aznar’s party was expected to win (and please spare me the hair-splitting over poll percentages, every newscast I’ve seen and every account I’ve read outside of here, has clearly indicated Aznar’s party was expected to win) despite his policy’s unpopularity. The bombing happened, and three days later the opposition was elected. It is exceedingly clear that due to the attacks, Spain as a country, voted differently than it would have had not the attacks occurred, i.e., my assessment that they capitulated to AQ in the hope that the new party would get them out of AQ’s crosshairs. You just can’t see where your logic flawed, can you? So I’ll help… at least 3 separate URL’s have been provided in this thread to news articles in media outlets OUTSIDE of the USA in the weeks PRIOR to the Spanish Elections which stated unequivocally that the election was going to be close - real close. Now, contrast that to the news feed that you’ve been getting WITHIN the United States AFTER the election. I’ll bet you a million bucks that you didn’t even know there was an upcoming Spanish election until your US Media outlets decided it was a story worth beating up because it sold easy copy. My point here is this… a shitload of us posters on the SDMB have access to news and comment from outside of the USA and it constantly marvels all of us how different the media spin is - depending on where you are. In short sir, you’ve been fooled into believing a certain position. All of the historical evidence indicates that the election actually went the way the polls were TRULY predicting - that is, totally line ball. So to repeat - here are the results once more… with virtually all the votes in Sunday’s poll counted, the Socialists took 34.7% of the vote, about 200,000 votes ahead of Mr Aznar’s party which finished on 33.8%. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/343 "2004-03-17T03:59:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [“The issue is Spain’s voters allowing AQ to bully them into voting they way AQ wanted in the election, and the subsequent impetus this will give for terrorists to do more of the same, and much more of it at that!”] [is] …An assertion which has been refuted several times over by those in a much better position to know, despite your and Sly Frog’s continued repetition of it. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > _Refuted_? How? > > Denied, maybe…claimed otherwise, maybe…blindly ignored, maybe…but I have seen no proof or even evidence that my position regarding the Spanish election providing even greater impetus to terrorist activity is wrong or inaccurate. Well, you can’t prove a negative. Luckily, we don’t have to. Your argument rests on the premise that Spanish voters had al Qaeda’s interests in mind when they went to the polls, rather than their own. _That_ is what has been refuted again and again. It has been shown that the Popular Party has been losing ground to the PSOE for over a year, and no-one who has been paying attention is terribly shocked by the election results. > [@](#): > > I defy you to show me proof that the result of the election in Spain is not going to result in greater, more enthusiastic terrorist activity! If you get hysterical and give al Qaeda credit for the election results, then _you’re_ encouraging exactly that. The elections worked exactly the way democratic elections are supposed to work. The Spanish people turfed their government because they were fed up. Yes, part of it was a reaction to the events leading up and immediately following the attacks. The government’s actions in both cases were deeply offensive to voters. It wasn’t just al Qaeda who was against Spanish soldiers in Iraq, remember-- it was 90% of Spaniards. Worse, the government [gave voters ample reason to resent them days before the election](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/international/europe/17SPAI.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5062&en=5d8304ee61c8f255&partner=GOOGLE&ex=1080104400) > [@](#): > > For example, the main television channel TVE, which is state-owned, showed scant and selective scenes of antigovernment demonstrations on Saturday night, just as it ran very little coverage of the large demonstrations against the war in Iraq last year. It also suddenly changed its regular programming to air a documentary on the horrors of ETA. > That was the last straw for some Spaniards, who said it evoked the nightmare of censorship during the Franco dictatorship little more than a quarter of a century ago. > Prime Minister José María Aznar personally called the top editors of Spain’s major dailies twice on the day of the attacks. In the first round of calls, Mr. Aznar said he was convinced that ETA was responsible. > "He said, `It was ETA, Antonio, don’t doubt it in the least,’ " said Antonio Franco, editor in chief of the Barcelona-based El Periódico de Catalunya, in an interview. > Mr. Franco’s newspaper published a special edition based on Mr. Aznar’s call, then Mr. Franco published an editorial rectifying the mistake as new information came to light. “It was shameful to me that the whole world was taking precautions and debating about Al Qaeda except in Spain, where the attack occurred,” he said. > At the Spanish news agency EFE, Alfonso Bauluz, a correspondent and member of the agency’s union, said, “I received information from my colleagues, who have good sources, about the Al Qaeda hypothesis, but the editor said we don’t want that, don’t pay attention. On Saturday, the editor wrote a story with his own byline saying all possibilities of an Al Qaeda connection were thrown out.” If you’re going to make policy choices that are nearly universaly unpopular, and then throw transparent bullshit at your citizens, then do not send to ask for whom the bell tolls, right? You can take comfort in the knowledge that terrorist attacks that are designed to demand change in policies that actually have popular support historically _strengthen_ political will. Argh, I had to take a longish phone call and on preview I see this has been adequately dealt with. Of course, it had been adequately dealt with before, but who knows, maybe this time it will get through. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/344 "2004-03-17T04:03:20Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Exactly! This is way it’s foolish to attempt to appease them. Capish? Except it’s not appeasment. I don’t see the ruling Spanish party saying they’re going to run away and hide, or to invite Al Queda to draw up a new constitution – they’re going to end their commitment to Iraq at a later date **as they originally would have anyway** unless, and this is key, their troops would be under UN and not US administration. So it’s not the pull away and hide under a rock strategy you seem to think it is. The new ruling party wants to focus their efforts on terrorism in a different direction than Iraq, which is their right, and quite frankly, I agree with this strategy. As to whether AQ views this as in their favor or not, I say, Fuck. Them. They can view it as a sign that Kool-Aid’s about to fall from the sky and I couldn’t give two shits. They will bomb whether they get encouragement or not. There is one tried and tested way to get terrorists to stop bombing – get terrorists. Not make the appearance of getting terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/345 "2004-03-17T04:25:27Z")
> [@1920s Style Death Ray](#): > > So you believe that they should ignore what they actually want and just do the opposite of what they think AQ wants them to do? > > Most people mature past this line of thought in their early teens. > > It is extremely stupid. I believe they should do what they would have done had not AQ blown up their trains. _I’m stupid?_ ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/346 "2004-03-17T04:32:42Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > That bunny must be using Energizer batteries, just keeps going and going and going… :rolleyes: Damn right!!! I am major pissed! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/347 "2004-03-17T04:54:09Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I believe they should do what they would have done had not AQ blown up their trains. _I’m stupid?_ Yes, because you are seeing a simple causal relationship between the attacks and the way people voted that simply _does not exist_. If you’d bother to try to understand the politics of the situation beyond the artificial and superficial concept that you have of it, you’d realize that what you’re asking is absurd. It not like the voting public is a discrete entity that _was_ going to vote for the PP, but changed its mind because of the attacks and instead voted in the PSOE. First, the election was really too close to call, before the attacks. Second, the attacks _did_ happen. and **A)** the PP handling of them was spectacularly offensive to many people, and **B)** they galvanized a lot of dissatisfied people who might otherwise have been more apathetic about actually voting. You can’t ask _rightly_ pissed-off people to either vote against their own interests or abstain because of some misguided abstraction of your own. It’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Admiral\_Thistlebottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@Admiral\_Thistlebottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Admiral_Thistlebottom)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/348 "2004-03-17T05:23:14Z")
Good point, **Larry** … people like **Starving Artist** tend to make very broad assumptions based on little or no evidence for whatever it is they’re claiming. Like drawing an imaginary parallel between Iraq and the September 11th attacks, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/349 "2004-03-17T05:26:56Z")
> [@Admiral Thistlebottom](#): > > Good point, **Larry** … people like **Starving Artist** tend to make very broad assumptions based on little or no evidence for whatever it is they’re claiming. Like drawing an imaginary parallel between Iraq and the September 11th attacks, for instance. I absolutely DEFY you to show where I ever did any such thing. Get it right, asshole! (Hmm…on the other hand, I must be making headway. This dipshit seems to have a real hard-on for me. Yea, me!) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/350 "2004-03-17T05:44:25Z")
Just like I bailed from Gaspode’s ridiculously self-congratulatory and ultimately dishonest thread (for painting all of us with whom he or she doesn’t agree with the same brush, although some of us used more insulting and derogatory terms in regard to Spain and Spaniards than others), I’ve had it here, too. There’s no point continuing to bang my head against the wall. I haven’t had a genuine, honest discourse with anyone here since last night, and there weren’t many then. Instead, I’m having to spend all my time defending myself for things I never said, or thoughts I never had, and explaining my genuine position over and over again. I find it very interesting that not once during this entire thread has anyone addressed the many salient points of my argument. I have scored many excellent points and arguments on this and some of the other threads. They have been ignored without exception. Instead, mostly inconsequential little snippets are drug out here and there, false meanings are attributed to them, and then the false meanings are attacked. Just remember your sanctimoniousness as you watch time after time while innocent people are killed and maimed by the ever-increasing terrorist activity that that election is going to engender. On second thought, never mind…you can’t see it now, and you’ll be just as delusional then, without a doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/351 "2004-03-17T05:58:18Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Just like I bailed from Gaspode’s ridiculously self-congratulatory and ultimately dishonest thread (for painting all of us with whom he or she doesn’t agree with the same brush, although some of us used more insulting and derogatory terms in regard to Spain and Spaniards than others), I’ve had it here, too. There’s no point continuing to bang my head against the wall. Yeah, it must be really tiring, having to completly ignore every argument that runs counter to your self-righteous little blame game, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/352 "2004-03-17T06:48:59Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Just like I bailed from Gaspode’s ridiculously self-congratulatory and ultimately dishonest thread (for painting all of us with whom he or she doesn’t agree with the same brush, although some of us used more insulting and derogatory terms in regard to Spain and Spaniards than others), I’ve had it here, too. Good. Fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/353 "2004-03-17T06:51:51Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > The fact remains, however, that Aznar’s party was expected to win (and please spare me the hair-splitting over poll percentages, every newscast I’ve seen and every account I’ve read outside of here, has clearly indicated Aznar’s party was expected to win) despite his policy’s unpopularity. You must have missed the 2000 Presidential election, because polls can say all sorts of things. > [@](#): > > It is exceedingly clear that due to the attacks, Spain as a country, voted differently than it would have had not the attacks occurred, i.e., my assessment that they capitulated to AQ in the hope that the new party would get them out of AQ’s crosshairs. They didn’t capitulate, are you fucking blind? The move is twofold, and the move is good strategy. Get the fuck out of Iraq, which is a waste, and concentrate on getting AQ. The hope that getting out of Iraq saves them from nuts using the excuse that they’re in Iraq is an added bonus. The people realized that following this course of action will most likely yield better results, so they voted for the people that will point them in that direction. In no way does stepping back to think about a better path equal caving in to the terrorists. This could be the very change that leads to their downfall, and you think it’s a bad thing, because for a few months it’ll look like “they won”. > [@](#): > > My position is that they should have reacted with unquestionable strength to AQ’s obvious attempt to sway their election and gone the other way. Even if this reaction was not best for the country? > [@](#): > > I would feel the same way here. As is probably apparent, Clinton was not someone who would have been my favorite President. But if AQ had deliberately and obviously committed an atrocity such as 9/11 in an attempt to get me to vote the other way, I would have voted for Clinton. Even if his opponent had better ideas? > [@](#): > > It’s much more important to show terrorists that their tactics aren’t going to work. Clinton could have been dealt with in the next election. So here it is, you would blindly choose the opposite of who _you think they wanted_ , because this would stick it to AQ. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I never said Spanish withdrawal would help AQ. My beef is that terrorism has been given a huge shot in the arm, and that many more people are going to be killed in future terrorist attacks than would have been otherwise due to the success of their use in Spain. Your wrongful belief that terrorism is going to sky rocket has been debunked, debunked and debunked. You look like an ass to keep repeating this. > [@](#): > > And do you really think that an attempt at recruiting based on “they’re still bombing Muslims” is going to be more, or even as, effective as turning an entire country’s election on its ear? Sure. We’re dealing with a bunch of brainwashed uneducated fools here, they’ll believe anything they’re told. > [@](#): > > Where it seems to me I differ with most of those on this board is that I am also extremely sympathetic toward the people who will be killed and the families of those who will be killed as a result of the encouragement Spain’s election is going to afford to the terrorists, and I’m furious about it! Same bullshit again. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/354 "2004-03-17T09:17:28Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve had it here, too. There’s no point continuing to bang my head against the wall. Well, I don’t know. Maybe if you bang your head against the wall long enough, your brain might actually awake from its obviously dormant state. I’d like to say, however (even though it’s been done before) that this thread at least confirms to me that for every stereotypically “stupid ugly American”, there are more than a handful of well-informed, nuanced Americans. Which goes to show the stereotype is just that - it doesn’t represent the nation as a whole. I know the US is not a well-liked country right now, from an international perspective, and I imagine that has to be very frustrating if you’re an American whose thought processes are a tad more complex than the usual GWB simplistic oneliners aimed at braindead “USA #1”-chanting potential voters. The US is a country I love dearly, despite the current political climate. I hope for America, and its citizens, that the country will soon rise from the diplomatic vaccuum it seems to have thrown itself in over the last four years. It used to be a nation to regard with respect - and I for one hope it will return to that status. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/355 "2004-03-17T10:53:46Z")
Thank you, **Coldfire**. In the same spirit, it is nice to know that many Europeans (and others around the world) do not hate Americans (the people), but may hate the direction our country has headed. If only more folks could make the important distinction between a nation of people and the policies and politics of its government, our world would indeed be a safer and better place. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/356 "2004-03-17T11:01:40Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Thank you, **Coldfire**. > > In the same spirit, it is nice to know that many Europeans (and others around the world) do not hate Americans (the people), but may hate the direction our country has headed. ewww… Before you two start french kissing let me just say I still hate Americans. Fucking stupid bastards! - Rune ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/357 "2004-03-17T11:06:11Z")
> [@WinstonSmith](#): > > ewww… > > Before you two start french kissing let me just say I still hate Americans. Fucking stupid bastards! > > - Rune I dunno 'bout that… they gave us the internet… and teflon… and The Doors… and Shelby Mustangs… and Marilyn Monroe. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/358 "2004-03-17T11:08:15Z")
> [@WinstonSmith](#): > > ewww… > > Before you two start french kissing let me just say I still hate Americans. Fucking stupid bastards! > > - Rune Well, I love Denmark. Especially Danish girls… - leander (Vesterbro inhabitant, '92-'94) ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/359 "2004-03-17T13:40:08Z")
**Starving Artist** : It’s hopeless. Most of your “opponents” are far too wrapped up in railing against the long abandoned contention of cowardice than they are in rationally discussing the possiblility that the attack could have effected the elections. That many arent even willing to entertain such a possiblity is quite telling, as is the difference in civility with which you/they approach the argument. They are still fighting the OP with you as proxy. If you strip the debate of it’s content and simply look at the structure you’ll see that the “opposition” isn’t remotely interested in the crux of your argument but in merely saving face, dodging logic, or sublimating their anger at the OP. Your best bet is to go and find a thread in GD where “fucking moron” isn’t used as a premise. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/360 "2004-03-17T14:08:22Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Your best bet is to go and find a thread in GD where “fucking moron” isn’t used as a premise. Because in GD the Spanish are merely “pussies”, not “cowards”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324.md?page=19)