# God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324 "2004-03-15T00:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/101 "2004-03-15T08:13:02Z")
There is a sense of deja vu to the Spanish people’s response to terrorism. If we go back to 1996, the longstanding socialist government went into the March election faced with a scandal involving their tough response to ETA terrorism. However on the eve of the election campaign, ETA gunned down the head of Spain’s constitutional court. [The murder sparked public outrage.](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9602/spain_elex/) And the governing party was subsequently turfed Also, keep in mind that the Spaniards did not participate in the war on Iraq. They did provide peacekeepers afterwards though. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/102 "2004-03-15T08:38:41Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Please read the article. > All polls showed a big victory for the current party before the attack. > > After the attack, the people of Spain did what they believed the terrorists wanted them to do. Aw, bullshit. This has been creeping up. [From March '03](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/29/sprj.irq.spain/) > [@](#): > > With opinion polls showing more than 90 percent of Spaniards are against the war, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar vowed his support of the war in Iraq would not lead to his ruling Popular Party being “cornered” by leftists and antiwar protesters. > Some leaders from Aznar’s conservative party have expressed fears openly – and many others have done so privately – that the prime minister’s support for the war could hurt the party in Spanish municipal elections on May 25. [From May '03](http://www.inq7.net/brk/2003/may/26/brkafp_2-1.htm) > [@](#): > > Spanish voters Sunday appeared to have punished Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar for his support for the Iraq war and his handling of the Prestige oil tanker disaster, early exit poll results for local and regional elections showed. > Aznar’s conservative People’s Party (PP) looked set to lose its 12-year grip on most town and city councils, with its support having fallen in the majority of regions, according to exit polls broadcast on national television. […] Opinion polls taken before the election showed Spain’s opposition Socialists (PSOE) leading for the first time since Aznar took power in 1996, riding on opposition to the war and bashing his PP for alleged lack of interest in social issues. [From June:](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_23/b3836074_mz015.htm) > [@](#): > > Although the opposition Socialists scored more votes than the Popular Party for the first time since 1993, Aznar’s party did far better than expected. The Popular Party retained key mayorships in Madrid and Valencia and won in 35 out of 52 cities. [From last month](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3455775.stm) > [@](#): > > Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio said she would not follow the British and US decisions to hold inquiries into the intelligence used before the war. > > Ms Palacio said Spain had supported the war on the basis of reports from the United Nations. > > Last week a former US chief weapons inspector said that Iraq did not have stockpiles of banned weapons. > > Jose Luis Zapatero, leader of the Spanish opposition PSOE, has called on the governing Popular Party to account for what he called “the lies” surrounding the government’s reasons for going to war. They just squeeked by at the local level, and since then the Hawks’ position on Iraq has taken some serious blows. If the bombings influenced the election (and it would be foolish to think that something so big _wouldn’t_ influence the election,) it’s not a capitulation to terrorists, it’s more of a “Fuck you, we didn’t want your damn-fool war, and this whole attracting-the-eye-of-Sauron business is just the icing on the cake.” > [@grienspace](#): > > Also, keep in mind that the Spaniards did not participate in the war on Iraq. They did provide peacekeepers afterwards though. Well, ten Spaniards have been killed in Iraq since the war “ended,” which is about as participatory as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/103 "2004-03-15T08:43:54Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > If that’s true, then why didn’t they “limit” the info until after the election? It’s not like we’re talking about a delay of even a week, are we? I’d say they released the info relatively quickly. > > But hey, I’m pretty retarded, so, grain of salt. hey, didja think maybe there was a leak? or several? What with national elections and power swings and people angry at war mongering idiots capitalizing on tragedy? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/104 "2004-03-15T09:15:08Z")
**Muad’Dib** , I concur with all those who expressed the opinion that you are a festering sore on the arsecrack of humanity. Well, nobody expressed _exactly_ that opinion, so let me be the first. If and when AQ starts issuing clear instructions to states regarding how they may avoid being the targets of terrorism, you can bitch about capitulation. Until then, have a big cup of shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/105 "2004-03-15T10:35:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > To which the answer is so what? So the terrorists will “think” they’re on to something, then that makes the next bomb is the fault of the entire Spanish nation? Take a look at the blogs, especially the self-proclaimed conservative ones, lately. They’re saying exactly 100% this - at least, for the bombs that happen close to elections. Actually, you really don’t have to look further than this very thread to see this assertion… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/106 "2004-03-15T10:40:17Z")
From the NY Times: > [@](#): > > Voters had the choice of 28 party lists, including mainstream parties like the Popular and Socialist parties and tiny ones like the leftist Communist Party of the Peoples of Spain and the rightist Falange, which opposes immigration and _supports the memory of the late dictator Franco_. Breaking news: he’s still dead! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/107 "2004-03-15T10:45:06Z")
The Spanish people have spoken, and they said “fuck off Aznar”. Why? Because he dragged them in the face of 90% opposition into an illegal war which may have been the cause of Thursday’s tragedy. Furthermore they misrepresented the identity of perpetrators because they knew it would fuck them up. Can you get it into your crappy little brain that just because a bunch of terrorist fucknuts want something, it doesn’t negate the legitimacy of that something? **Muad’Dib** your OP disgusts me. And by extension so you do. Go and fuck yourself, you antidemocratic cunt. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/108 "2004-03-15T10:55:52Z")
> [@RexDart](#): > > Socialists suck. They suck big time. They couldn’t possibly suck more, yet every day brings a new height of suck-ness, as they break their own levels, which surely were the previous record of suck-i-tude. They set the curve for suck. Oh, for God’s sake, just _shut up_, McCarthy. Your remark goes to show that, like the OP, you understand fuck-all about European politics, and Spanish politics specifically. The Spanish Socialist Party is not a pinko commie chapter, **RexDart**. They’re not the new Bolshevik threat to European peace and freedom. Now, I’m not a socialist myself, and would never vote for such a party, but I’m smart enough to realise that people’s political ideals differ and vary across nations, and even within them. For you to use this as your only reason why the Spanish election results are a bad thing displays your massive ignorance. I for one would prefer you keep your pants on, lest we get more of your verbal diarrhea. Now, on to that other dickhead, **Muad’Dib**. Who the fuck do you think you are? Are you from Madrid? Was your city rocked by a terrorist attack less than a week ago? Your nation, even? You seem to forget that whilst terror on US soil is a relatively new thing, many European nations (Spain included) have lived with terrorism in their midst for many decades. You also seem to forget, that Aznar et al were quick to blame ETA, even when details were sketchy. You also conveniently overlook the fact that Al Queda DID claim the attack, and that for better or worse, it looks like an AQ act rather than an ETA one now. Aznar led Spain into the war against Iraq (or Saddam, or WMD’s, or whatever the catchphrase _du jour_ was) despite an overwhelming public outcry against it. Popular support for him has been on the decline ever since, as demonstrated by the esteemed **Larry Mudd**. Last weeks attacks _could_ have saved Aznar’s majority in yesterday’s elections, _had they been ETA attacks_. It looks like they’re not. Based on the assumption that AQ is behind this (which is not an unreasonable one at this stage), the Spanish voters decided to punish the man who got them into this war, even when 90% of the nation opposed doing so. It’s not rocket science. It’s also a far cry from giving in to terrorism. And it CERTAINLY isn’t cowardice. Don’t you **ever** speak of cowardice again, from the safety and comfort of your own home, about a people who just went through a major tragedy in their country’s history. A country you so obviously know fuck-all about. You disgust me, **Muad’Dib**. I hope your escape from ignorance follows a more peaceful path than the citizens of Spain were offered last week. Now, if you will excuse me, I (together with the rest of the European Union) will prepare to observe three minutes of silence for those that perished in last week’s tragic attacks, starting at noon CET. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/109 "2004-03-15T11:03:11Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Well, _I_ stand for what I said, asshole. Whilst I understand your outrage, **Ale** , it is _not_ allowed to make physical threats against other posters. The pen is mightier than the sword, especially on the SDMB. Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![blackhobyah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blackhobyah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blackhobyah)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/110 "2004-03-15T11:03:36Z")
I think the OP was reprehensible. When the American President or our Prime Minister makes a statement on terrorism, the context is that they are saving the world for democracy. The Spanish exercised their right to democracy, so it would appear that the terrorists haven’t made that much head way. Had the Spanish all stayed home and refused to vote, the OP’s argument might have had some weight, but as it was, the Spanish turned out, in protest and to vote, which would seem to be a good thing for democracy over all. The fact that in the OP’s limited understanding of the Spanish social and cultural milieu, they did the wrong thing is irrelevant. A characteristic of terrorists is their inability to value divergent social, cultural and political perspectives, to see the world through their own solipsistic lens. I think the OP has demonstrated that in one respect at least, he shares more with the terrorists than he might wish to believe. There is, in fact, another point of view, which suggests that one of the aims of terrorism is to prompt a violent reprisal, in order to mobilise potential supporters to their cause. > [@](#): > > Terrorists particularly hope to elicit a violent response that will assist them in mobilizing their own people. A terrorist group is the apex of a pyramid of supporters and sympathizers. The base of the pyramid is composed of all those who sympathize with the terrorist cause even though they may disagree with the violent means that the terrorist use. In Northern Ireland, for instance, the base of the pyramid is all who agree with “Brits Out”. In the Islamic world, the base of the pyramid is all those who agree that the U.S. has been hurting and humiliating Muslims for fifty years. The pyramid is essential to the terrorists for cover and for recruits. The terrorists hope that a clumsy and over-generalized strike against them will hit some of their own side who are not yet radicalized and mobilized, will enlarge their base of sympathy, will turn the sympathetic but unmobilized to action and sacrifice, and will strengthen their own status at the apex of this pyramid. > [http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/mccauley\_text\_only.htm](http://www.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/mccauley_text_only.htm) > _Clark R. McCauley, Professor of Psychology, Bryn Mawr College_ So from this point of view, by voting in a Government which may be more measured in its potential responses, the Spanish might, in fact, have dropped a spanner in the works of terrorism. Of course, the same point of view would argue that the invasion of Iraq actively aided the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/111 "2004-03-15T11:18:50Z")
**Muad’Dib** , you’re an idiot. This is democracy in action, even when it means voting for damn liberal, pinko European commies. Like it or lump it. It has nothing to do with capitulation to terrorism. Nor do I understand how it is giving in to terrorist demands. What demands? What connection is there between Spanish involvement in Iraq (against the wishes of the population) and Al Qaeda? I know certain governments and maybe even Al Qaeda itself would like the public to believe there is a connection, but none has been proven to exist. So your post is offensive, ignorant bile-water. Please return to source. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/112 "2004-03-15T11:32:59Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Oh, for God’s sake, just _shut up_, McCarthy. > > Your remark goes to show that, like the OP, you understand fuck-all about European politics, and Spanish politics specifically. The Spanish Socialist Party is not a pinko commie chapter, **RexDart**. They’re not the new Bolshevik threat to European peace and freedom. Now, I’m not a socialist myself, and would never vote for such a party, but I’m smart enough to realise that people’s political ideals differ and vary across nations, and even within them. For you to use this as your only reason why the Spanish election results are a bad thing displays your massive ignorance. I for one would prefer you keep your pants on, lest we get more of your verbal diarrhea. Oooooooooh, the leftists’ favorite retort to anybody who has the balls to state their opposition to socialism: McCarthyist!!! (I was under the impression you _weren’t_ a leftist, you oughtta avoid using their typical knee-jerk response.) I didn’t realize that saying “socialists suck” was tantamount to staging elaborate proceedings to hunt down and exterminate people who may have read a Marxist pamphlet in college. I hate seeing socialists gain power anywhere, whether red, pink or otherwise. But I can’t imagine they would call themselves “socialists” unless they believed in at least the positions common to those who identify with that ideology. If the Spanish people _want_ to empower them, well they can suffer for it and it’s none of my direct concern in the short-run. I will simply note my position that socialists do now, and always have, sucked. I hate them, and wish everything they believe would be eradicated from the face of the earth, and despise seeing them gain influence. If they stay over there in Europe, well fine then, as long as we don’t get any more idiotic SCOTUS decisions citing European courts as persuasive authority. Oh, and “verbal diarrhea”…well fuck you too, then. ---
**Author:** ![sajwalke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/edb3f5/32.png) [@sajwalke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sajwalke)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/113 "2004-03-15T11:40:59Z")
So what you’re saying is we should do the exact opposite of whatever the terrorists want just so they know they don’t control us or something? You know what? Fuck that. I didn’t support the war in Iraq to begin with, and I’m not going to support it even if they kill a bunch of our people because it’s just a stupid idea. I’m not going to support something just because it’s what some terrorists are fighting agaist, and good on the Spanish people for not being swayed by them. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/114 "2004-03-15T11:49:52Z")
**MaudDib** and the rest of you who think this is about giving in to terrorists, I have a radical suggestion for you: _Listen_ to the Spanish voters. Maybe the US media isn’t interviewing them, but the European media sure is. Try reading some of the stories at the [BBC’s news site](http://news.bbc.co.uk), for instance. See what they have to say for themselves instead of putting words in their mouths. Although this is by far the worst single terrorist attack in Spanish history, it isn’t the first and likely won’t be the last. ETA have the blood of at least eight hundred people on their hands, and that’s not even counting their side businesses like that cozy extortion racket they’ve had in the Basque country. Furthermore, remember that Spain is only one generation removed from dictatorship, and nearly lost its newborn democracy in a coup attempt in 1981 - and I mean there were armed soldiers in the halls of Parliament. (The bullet holes are still in the ceiling and walls, as a reminder.) The Spanish people have fought to keep and nurture a free society from the ground up, now, in living memory. Don’t you ever call them cowards. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/115 "2004-03-15T12:14:25Z")
> [@RexDart](#): > > (I was under the impression you _weren’t_ a leftist, you oughtta avoid using their typical knee-jerk response.) Your initial impression was correct: I’m not a leftist - at least not on the local political scale. I’m sure I qualify as a raging pinko commie on the US scale. As would 90% of Europeans, likely. The point was not, that I want to take away your right to dislike Socialists, whatever shape they appear in. That’s all fine and dandy. But if your only reaction to a historic election following an even more historic and tragic terrorist act is _“Dayum, them Socialists suck”_, then you’re an idiot of the highest caliber. Of course, you closed off your intitial post suggesting John Kerry was a “friend” to the terrorists, so I suppose I should just let your words speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/116 "2004-03-15T12:24:23Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > . Of course, you closed off your intitial post suggesting John Kerry was a “friend” to the terrorists, so I suppose I should just let your words speak for themselves. I bet if you asked the terrorists who they’d prefer to win the US election, the ones who cared or knew anything about US politics anyways, they certainly wouldn’t say George Bush. I’d bet they’d much prefer to have a US president who went looking for a permission slip from the UN (by which I mean France, Red China and Russia, in practical terms) everytime he wants to do something favorable to US national interests. I bet they’d much prefer a president who wanted to legitimize the theocratic regime in Iran over George Bush who openly recognizes that regime as evil. I bet they’d much prefer John Kerry, who thought it was too extreme for Reagan to bomb the presidential palace in Libya even after we had concrete proof of their involvement in a terror attack. I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of our nation’s enemies want John Kerry to win. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/117 "2004-03-15T12:26:45Z")
> [@RexDart](#): > > I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of our nation’s enemies want John Kerry to win. And so do a lot of your friends. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/118 "2004-03-15T12:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d bet they’d much prefer to have a US president who went looking for a permission slip from the UN (by which I mean France, Red China and Russia, in practical terms) everytime he wants to do something favorable to US national interests. You’re aware Kerry has flatly stated on many occasions that he wouldn’t do this, right? Why am I even bothering? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/119 "2004-03-15T12:29:04Z")
And that, of course, gives you the right to refer to a presidential candidate as “friend of the terrorists”. Thanks for that little glimpse into your world of logic, **RexDart**. It’s most fascinating. (I suppose, if you had prefaced that last post by, “I’m sorry, I fucked up in the heat of the moment - here’s what I was trying to say”, you would have had some success in convincing me of your good intentions. Now, it looks like a weasel.) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324/120 "2004-03-15T12:39:32Z")
> [@RexDart](#): > > I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of our nation’s enemies want John Kerry to win. You know, I really wouldn’t be too sure about this … Bush has managed to alienate a lot of people outside America, his “War on Terror” doesn’t seem to have had any noticeable effect on al-Qaeda, and he’s a reliable hate figure across a good chunk of the Islamic world. I would suggest to you that the leadership of al-Qaeda would _much_ rather have four more years of Bush, than have him replaced by someone who might be able to put together an effective international anti-terrorism coalition. You shouldn’t make the mistake of assuming these guys are either stupid or badly informed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-damned-mother-effing-coward-spaniards/234324.md?page=7)