# God doesn't seem very Godly to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494 "2012-12-09T07:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/321 "2014-06-17T14:25:13Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Anything that has got a form is unreal. Forms are special modes of cognition and perception. They are not ultimate. In waking, there are physical forms; in dreaming, there are mental forms. Anyhow, all are forms only, limited in space and time. A form lasts only so long as that particular mental condition lasts. When there is a different mental condition, the forms of experience also change. This is why the form of the world vanishes when Self-realisation is attained." “Well, Art is Art, isn’t it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.” –Groucho Marx The second quote is more applicable to my life. And the Matrix was a pretty lousy movie. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/322 "2014-06-17T14:28:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t understand this sentence, particularly the words “is not claim”. > There is no need to “claim” something which is so obvious. > > They were created in my unconscious mind. > > This doesn’t make sense to me. Many (and most) things exist, but only temporarily. I have tomato plants on my patio – they will grow tomatoes that will exist for a short time until I eat them. There is no eternal tomato, but tomatoes are still real. Tomatoes did not exist at the beginning, and they will not exist at the end, but they still do exist now. Whatever has name and form are temporary, you dont go around seeking Eternal Tomato, Eternal iiandyiiii etc. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/323 "2014-06-17T14:35:41Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Whatever has name and form are temporary, you dont go around seeking Eternal Tomato, Eternal iiandyiiii etc. maybe _ **you** _ don’t ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/324 "2014-06-17T14:36:51Z")
And whatever is temporary is unreal from the standpoint of Absolute reality. Relative reality should not be confused as absolute reality. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/325 "2014-06-17T14:39:28Z")
> [@simster](#): > > maybe _ **you** _ don’t seems you missed the context of my reply. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/326 "2014-06-17T14:40:13Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > “I Slept well” are never meant to be taken the way you have taken it. And yet you’re the only one who has stuck to your understanding of “I slept well.”. I disagreed, and several others agreed with my interpretation. It seems like you’re the odd one out, not me. > [@](#): > > In deep sleep you are not aware of yourself, You dont know your name or form. So in that case, there are only 2 possibilities, 1. You didn’t exist during the sleep and suddenly re-appeared only after waking up.[Which is Irrational at best] 2. You continue to exist through different states. You continue to exist even without the feeling of body and mind. Super consciousness or Brahman is eternal. So Turiya or Transcendental state can be the only reality . Actually, I disagree that the disappearing/re-appearing idea is irrational. I think that’s entirely how I’d sum up the idea. My consciousness is defined in terms of my awareness of my self, at least for me. During unconsciousness, I’m not aware of me. So I think it’s entirely accurate to say that, temporarily, my consciousness has “vanished”. It’s like a computer; when it’s on, an operating system is up and running and allows me to interact with it. When the computer is off, that operating system is still within that computer, but I’m no longer able to interact with it. The computer’s “consciousness” vanishes, while the underlying programming allowing it to exist again continues to exist, ready to start up again when it’s turned on. I would absolutely defend the idea that, when I’m asleep, my consciousness “vanishes”, that it does not exist. > [@](#): > > That which does not exist in the beginning and in the end does not really exist in the middle also. It is unreal. In Deep sleep state you are experiencing something very closer to reality. That has been my point all along. Whether you feel refreshed after dream sleep or deep sleep is collateral. Demonstrably incorrect, since as the cites you provided and apparently have not read yourself state, sleep itself is a matter of moving from state to state. “Deep sleep” does not exist at the beginning or the end of sleep, and therefore does not exist in the middle. It is unreal. Logically speaking, your argument demands the exact opposite of what you are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/327 "2014-06-17T14:47:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > “Well, Art is Art, isn’t it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.” > > –Groucho Marx > > The second quote is more applicable to my life. > > And the Matrix was a pretty lousy movie. My point was limited to the inspiration of the concept of the movie which is Advaita Vedanta. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/328 "2014-06-17T14:50:32Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Whatever has name and form are temporary, you dont go around seeking Eternal Tomato, Eternal iiandyiiii etc. So you’re backing off your claim that things that are not eternal do not exist? ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/329 "2014-06-17T14:56:05Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > And yet you’re the only one who has stuck to your understanding of “I slept well.”. I disagreed, and several others agreed with my interpretation. > > It seems like you’re the odd one out, not me. > > Sleeping is an act, when anyone says I played well, it relates to the act and experience of playing. Same applies to sleeping or eating. I dont know why you or anyone for that matter should analyze the experience based on after event of you feeling refreshed? Anyways, as i said, that is not the point of contention ever. so we can agree to disagree. > > Actually, I disagree that the disappearing/re-appearing idea is irrational. I think that’s entirely how I’d sum up the idea. My consciousness is defined in terms of my awareness of my self, at least for me. During unconsciousness, I’m not aware of me. So I think it’s entirely accurate to say that, temporarily, my consciousness has “vanished”. It’s like a computer; when it’s on, an operating system is up and running and allows me to interact with it. When the computer is off, that operating system is still within that computer, but I’m no longer able to interact with it. The computer’s “consciousness” vanishes, while the underlying programming allowing it to exist again continues to exist, ready to start up again when it’s turned on. > This seems quite imaginative stuff. I dont find any rational behind the concept of appearing and disappearing like Ghosts. > > I would absolutely defend the idea that, when I’m asleep, my consciousness “vanishes”, that it does not exist. Demonstrably incorrect, since as the cites you provided and apparently have not read yourself state, sleep itself is a matter of moving from state to state. “Deep sleep” does not exist at the beginning or the end of sleep, and therefore does not exist in the middle. It is unreal. Logically speaking, your argument demands the exact opposite of what you are claiming. You are again mistaken here, I said deep sleep is the closest state you can get to the reality, from the stand point of Absolute reality, deep sleep state is unreal too, No one claimed otherwise. Turiya or Transcendental state is the only reality which is also known as Samadhi or Enlightened state in Vedanta. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/330 "2014-06-17T15:01:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re backing off your claim that things that are not eternal do not exist? You never understood my point it seems. Dream is real as long as you are dreaming, Universe and Objects are real as long as you are in the state of duality. Just as waking from dream makes you negate the “Reality” of Dream Objects. Reality of waking state is negated in deep sleep state and even deep sleep state is negated in state of Turiya or Samadhi. From standpoint of absolute reality, things which have name and form have no real existence. Hope there is clarity now. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/331 "2014-06-17T15:05:42Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Dream is no dream to the dreamer. Only by one who is awake, dream is known to be a dream. [Lucid dreaming?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream) ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/332 "2014-06-17T15:15:25Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > [Lucid dreaming?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream) Lucid dreaming is special case, But then it only happens in the middle of the dream or end of it. There are dreaming experiences prior to that which is seen as reality. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/333 "2014-06-17T15:15:35Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > seems you missed the context of my reply. or perhaps you missed the subtlety to mine. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/334 "2014-06-17T15:15:40Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > You are again mistaken here, I said deep sleep is the closest state you can get to the reality, from the stand point of Absolute reality, deep sleep state is unreal too, No one claimed otherwise. Turiya or Transcendental state is the only reality which is also known as Samadhi or Enlightened state in Vedanta. I’m not mistaken. If something is not real, then it cannot be closer to real than another thing that is unreal. There is no “it” to compare against. It’s like saying that one invisible apple is more colourful than this other invisible apple. The characteristic applied to it means it is _devoid_ of a quality, not that it has _less_ of a quality. If you want to say that “deep sleep” is the closest you can get to reality, from whatever standpoint you’d like, you cannot apply “unreal” to it. You should choose a different word, one that could actually work that way. Edit: Just noticed you’ve made a few errors with the quote tags there. Let me try again responding to the whole of your post. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/335 "2014-06-17T15:17:00Z")
Initiation A lucid dream can begin in one of many ways. A dream-initiated lucid dream (D.I.L.D.) starts as a normal dream, and the dreamer eventually concludes it is a dream. A wake-initiated lucid dream (W.I.L.D.) occurs when the dreamer goes from a normal waking state directly into a dream state, with no apparent lapse in consciousness. The wake-initiated lucid dream occurs when the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state.[29] ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/336 "2014-06-17T15:18:26Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not mistaken. If something is not real, then it cannot be closer to real than another thing that is unreal. There is no “it” to compare against. > > It’s like saying that one invisible apple is more colourful than this other invisible apple. The characteristic applied to it means it is _devoid_ of a quality, not that it has _less_ of a quality. > > If you want to say that “deep sleep” is the closest you can get to reality, from whatever standpoint you’d like, you cannot apply “unreal” to it. You should choose a different word, one that could actually work that way. > > Edit: Just noticed you’ve made a few errors with the quote tags there. Let me try again responding to the whole of your post. There are different forms of reality. There is objective reality, relative reality and absolute reality. I posted about this in detail in earlier pages. Please check it out. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/337 "2014-06-17T15:20:02Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Lucid dreaming is special case, But then it only happens in the middle of the dream or end of it. There are dreaming experiences prior to that which is seen as reality. [Special case? Special pleading.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading) ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/338 "2014-06-17T15:20:35Z")
“The difference between deep sleep and samadhi - super consciousness - is that in deep sleep there is the veil of ignorance, and in samadhi this veil is removed.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/339 "2014-06-17T15:21:13Z")
> [@MusicalDream](#): > > Sleeping is an act, when anyone says I played well, it relates to the act and experience of playing. Same applies to sleeping or eating. I dont know why you or anyone for that matter should analyze the experience based on after event of you feeling refreshed? Anyways, as i said, that is not the point of contention ever. so we can agree to disagree. Actually, I disagree with you when it comes to both sleeping and eating. If I say “I ate well.”, it tends to mean “I feel full and am happy now.” I’ve already given you what I mean when it comes to sleeping. Playing - eh, it could go both ways, really. If I’m playing football and I say “I played well”, I’d be meaning that I’d given a good performance. But it might mean that I was at that point feeling elated, well-exercised, or simply full of adrenaline, all current things. > [@](#): > > This seems quite imaginative stuff. I dont find any rational behind the concept of appearing and disappearing like Ghosts. Why? It seems manifestly true to me. My “I” is what I call my consciousness. I don’t have that when I’m asleep. Logically, it is not there. In this case because, I would argue, it’s an emergent property from processes which continue but which are not by themselves my consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![MusicalDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MusicalDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicalDream)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/340 "2014-06-17T15:22:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > [Special case? Special pleading.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading) As i already pointed out in my previous post. Lucid dreaming has normal dreaming prior to it, It is only in the middle or end of dreaming you realize it is dream.Not from beginning.So even in Lucid dreaming , substantial part of your dream is reality for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=18)