# God doesn't seem very Godly to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494 "2012-12-09T07:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/61 "2012-12-11T00:49:20Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > **Blaster** **Master** , didn’t want to quote your whole post, but I have a question for any of you “all Christians don’t believe this way” types. How do you justify the revisionist view? I don’t want to use the terms cherry picking or apologist because they are a bit hateful, but I can’t think of a better shortcut to my question. If the individual rewrites the religion in order to suit his own level of education and support his own arguments, what, exactly, is left? Do you believe only certain chapters which are somewhat plausible? Do you choose to accept only those bits and pieces with some historical support? Do you pick only those sections which match political and social trends? How do _you_ know which interpretation is the “revisionist view”? Speaking for myself, one reason I am reluctant to take the Adam and Eve story, for example, as a literal account of historical events, is that I suspect that those who originally told, heard, or wrote down the story did not intend for it to be understood as such. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/62 "2012-12-11T00:51:01Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > Adam and Eve were not children! They were ADULTS! And told YOU WILL DIE IF YOU EAT THAT! Why do people act like they were 3 . They were at fault THEY ATE IT KNOWING AS ADULTS NOT TODDLERS ! Do not eat this OR YOU DIE . Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve actually happened the way it is written in the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/63 "2012-12-11T01:35:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did they know right from wrong before they ate the fruit? Bingo. That and, what was their sum total of life experience as “adults”? No other humans, no sin, no knowledge of good or evil… I’d say they were children, regardless of physical form. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/64 "2012-12-11T01:54:43Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Bingo. That and, what was their sum total of life experience as “adults”? No other humans, no sin, no knowledge of good or evil… I’d say they were children, regardless of physical form. And we don’t even know if they were seven days old or 21 years old when this happened. We have an upper bound based on Adam’s age when he died, but it seems rather likely they’d be toddlers in the normal course of events. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/65 "2012-12-11T01:58:03Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How do _you_ know which interpretation is the “revisionist view”? > > Speaking for myself, one reason I am reluctant to take the Adam and Eve story, for example, as a literal account of historical events, is that I suspect that those who originally told, heard, or wrote down the story did not intend for it to be understood as such. Well, yours, for instance. Why don’t you take the origin story literally? Who are you to decide what the authors intentions were? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/66 "2012-12-11T02:02:56Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Perhaps not the best analogy because of the conotations, but it’s like someone who is in love trying to explain those feelings to someone who never has been. It has people believe and do completely illogical things and all because of an experience that is completely impossible to accurately articulate and, frankly, sounds pretty silly when it is described. The point is, humans are NOT purely logical creatures, and a big part of what makes us who we are is our irrationality. Some people think this is a bad thing, I disagree, but that’s not really here or there. I don’t recall any atheist ever doubting the existence of religious feelings and religious experiences you describe here. In fact they can be reproduced. What we doubt is that these feelings represent something not totally inside your head. > [@](#): > > But here’s the thing, making blanket assumptions about theists or atheists and then belittling it or strawmanning it isn’t going to make a difference. I love to talk about that sort of stuff, but it’s only really worth talking about on an individual level. I’ll never convince a generic atheist that my perspective makes sense, but I’ll never convince a generic Christian that my perspective makes sense either. Yet, when I can sit down and we can discuss our experiences, our logic, our beliefs, I’ve found that most reasonably intelligent people can, even if they don’t agree, at least come to an understanding of why they don’t. But, you’ll also find that, though I am a Christian, I believe virtually none of the generic Christian beliefs mentioned by the OP. Great. What we’re asking is why you believe what you do believe. I can understand why the fundamentalist does. But if I were to use your belief to predict your position on almost any issue, I’d probably have a hard time. Are you a Christian because you believe in certain parts of the Bible? Is it because you had these experience, which you probably connect to Jesus based on your upbringing and culture? Is it from logic? That’s the problem I have. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/67 "2012-12-11T02:23:08Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Well, yours, for instance. Why don’t you take the origin story literally? Who are you to decide what the authors intentions were? That is not that hard. Both of the creation stories are told in the manner of myth\*. Both stories have had a lot of commentary written about them, (in which the commentators clearly did not expect them to be taken literally), in periods much closer to the time when they were written. Treating them as literal is much more recent than accepting them as myth, so why would anyone treat them as literal? - Myth, in the anthropological sense of a story–recognized as a story–written to express a truth held by a people. In the case of the first creation account, for example: The story demonstrates (at minimum) the belief that the world was created in an orderly fashion and that the creator considered it to be good. This was in contrast to myths present in the same general region that explained that the world was created in chaos and/or by a malevolent being that allowed the world to be evil. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/68 "2012-12-11T02:38:16Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Again, I disagree with the notion that God knew what was going to happen, based on reading Genesis. Otherwise the flood would have never been necessary. The flood was to correct a mistake that God made. > Christians (I’m not sure how Jews feel about this) have decided that God must be omni-everything (omniomni?), but that doesn’t fit with Genesis. So you say there are things that God doesn’t know? I thought by definition, God knows everything. The writers of Genesis could be wrong, it wouldn’t be the only time. I can’t speak for Jews or Christians, I’m agnostic. (If it matters) ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/69 "2012-12-11T02:43:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That is not that hard. Both of the creation stories are told in the manner of myth\*. Both stories have had a lot of commentary written about them, (in which the commentators clearly did not expect them to be taken literally), in periods much closer to the time when they were written. > Treating them as literal is much more recent than accepting them as myth, so why would anyone treat them as literal? > > - Myth, in the anthropological sense of a story–recognized as a story–written to express a truth held by a people. Do you mean the original authors included footnotes? Or later readers decided “oh, they surely meant to imply this is an origin myth, the whole God created man from dirt and woman from rib is total hokey”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/70 "2012-12-11T03:05:04Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Do you mean the original authors included footnotes? Or later readers decided “oh, they surely meant to imply this is an origin myth, the whole God created man from dirt and woman from rib is total hokey”? No. I mean that there is a longstanding tradition in human history of creating myth and, before the 19th century biblical literalists started corrupting that understanding, it was well recognized. There have always been a few people in many cultures who have wanted to treat myth literally, but they are generally recognized for having missed the boat (or ark, as the case may be). Augustine of Hippo, at the beginning of the fifth century, wrote a lengthy discussion of the Creation story, _de Genesis_, employing, (and noting), metaphor, allegory, and many other rhetorical devices. He also noted, in Chapter 19, in regard to taking the stories too literally: > [@](#): > > Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/71 "2012-12-11T05:03:33Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > So you say there are things that God doesn’t know? I thought by definition, God knows everything. The writers of Genesis could be wrong, it wouldn’t be the only time. > > I can’t speak for Jews or Christians, I’m agnostic. (If it matters) Not the original definition; that evolved over time. God in Genesis doesn’t know lots of things. Adam and Eve hide from him. It was the merging of Jewish tradition with Greek philosophy (and Pythagorean mysticism) that led to the declaration of the “omni” characteristics. The God who was stymied by iron chariots was not the God of C.S. Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/72 "2012-12-11T13:03:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. I mean that there is a longstanding tradition in human history of creating myth and, before the 19th century biblical literalists started corrupting that understanding, it was well recognized. > > There have always been a few people in many cultures who have wanted to treat myth literally, but they are generally recognized for having missed the boat (or ark, as the case may be). > > Augustine of Hippo, at the beginning of the fifth century, wrote a lengthy discussion of the Creation story, _de Genesis_, employing, (and noting), metaphor, allegory, and many other rhetorical devices. He also noted, in Chapter 19, in regard to taking the stories too literally: Augustine spoke as a man of his time, he also wrote in the City of God that it was impossible for the world to be round! That was his belief, and belif like mine or anyone else’s belief is not fact.Fact can cancel belief for then it is no longer belief! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/73 "2012-12-11T13:29:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Great. What we’re asking is why you believe what you do believe. I can understand why the fundamentalist does. But if I were to use your belief to predict your position on almost any issue, I’d probably have a hard time. Are you a Christian because you believe in certain parts of the Bible? Is it because you had these experience, which you probably connect to Jesus based on your upbringing and culture? Is it from logic? > That’s the problem I have. Do you find it so hard to believe that some theists can arrive at their belief not through literal interpretation of the Bible, but rather through research into secondary writings of philosophers, theologists, and scientists; as well the application of reason and rationality? Is that such a bizarre concept that it boggles the mind? I don’t claim that theists rely solely on observable science or rationality, but it seems equally problematic to believe they cannot rely on reason at all, instead of having to rely on a literal interpretation of a book. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/74 "2012-12-11T13:42:22Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Do you find it so hard to believe that some theists can arrive at their belief not through literal interpretation of the Bible, but rather through research into secondary writings of philosophers, theologists, and scientists; as well the application of reason and rationality? Is that such a bizarre concept that it boggles the mind? I don’t claim that theists rely solely on observable science or rationality, but it seems equally problematic to believe they cannot rely on reason at all, instead of having to rely on a literal interpretation of a book. Literal, no. But they certainly don’t do so by “the application of reason and rationality”; there are no such reasons to be religious. Religion is without exception irrational and baseless. It all comes from if not that book, _some_ book or _some_ believers _some_where; there’s no objective evidence for any gods, no logic that demands one; there’s nothing in the natural world or reason that will lead them to a god, it all comes from people. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/75 "2012-12-11T15:01:35Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The OP in this thread, I think, illustrates a lot of the issue I see that happens between atheists and theists. There is this idea that all Christians believe these things, and while a lot of what the OP says is more or less what’s in the Bible, I don’t know a single person who believes all or even most of that. I know entire communities (having once belonged to them myself) who profess to believe almost everything in the OP. Literally. You know, perhaps, people who believe a subset, even if you discard everything leaving only the notion that there is a supernatural higher intelligence. > [@](#): > > Perhaps not the best analogy because of the conotations, but it’s like someone who is in love trying to explain those feelings to someone who never has been. It has people believe and do completely illogical things and all because of an experience that is completely impossible to accurately articulate and, frankly, sounds pretty silly when it is described. The point is, humans are NOT purely logical creatures, and a big part of what makes us who we are is our irrationality. Some people think this is a bad thing, I disagree, but that’s not really here or there. As **Voyager** and others have said, no one denying the feelings of religious experience. But experiencing something one would call “religious” and concluding “therefore God” is the same as experiencing something one would call “love” and concluding “therefore Cupid” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/76 "2012-12-11T15:15:03Z")
Has there ever been a poll to see what percentage of Americans believe the story of Adam and Eve to be literally true? edited to add-make that Americans that profess to be Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/77 "2012-12-11T15:33:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually, the more we understand the less we need of concepts like “life force.” As we assemble more and more complex living things from basic components, this “life energy” is going to get less and less believable. There’s a good term for this “life force” or “life energy”. It’s called “vitalism”. There were reasonable arguments for it, long ago. It’s no longer considered a useful scientific concept. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/78 "2012-12-11T15:38:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has there ever been a poll to see what percentage of Americans believe the story of Adam and Eve to be literally true? > edited to add-make that Americans that profess to be Christian. [Gallup poll: In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally](http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/79 "2012-12-11T15:43:07Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > [Gallup poll: In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally](http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx) That’s not 3 in 10 Christians. That’s 3 in 10 _Americans_. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/80 "2012-12-11T15:46:37Z")
I have a hard time respecting anyone who can worship a God who would commit anyone to eternal damnation. Then I have to remind myself that I know a lot of people I deeply respect and would trust my life, property, and loved ones to, who do. I have a hard time reconciling these, though. Go figure. I’d have an even harder time respecting any mathematician who worships a God who would commit anyone to eternal damnation. After all, can’t they do the math? The punishment doesn’t fit the crime, unless the crime is inifinitely horrendous. That’s true even if Hell is only mildly annoying, or even OK but not great. I also have a hard time understanding the concept of a God who demands worship. Seems a bit petty. I agree with whomever above attributed it to an extension of human characteristics. I have a _really_ hard time with Christian theology, which seems terribly mystical / medieval. I can see how things like Christ atoning for original sin would be an attractive concept to someone living long ago, but I can’t reconcile it with any sort of rational thinking or ethical system. I mean, what the _heck_ was God thinking? Seriously! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=5)