# God doesn't seem very Godly to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494 "2012-12-09T07:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/101 "2012-12-13T13:34:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did they know right from wrong before they ate the fruit? According to GenesisGod didn’t want thenm to know the difference between good and evil, and since they ate from the tree of knowledge noe they must die. Not a just being in my book. Why keep a person ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/102 "2012-12-13T14:22:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We both are combining two very different questions. The first is God’s existence. That wasn’t the question my posts were meant to address at all. I was taken aback by your understanding of a literalist interpretation of the Bible, but not of a more nuanced, reasonable interpretation. If that was not what you meant, I apologize for wasting your time. > [@Voyager](#): > > The question of, given one believes in some of the Bible, which parts to believe in, is very different. Yes it is, and it was the point I was trying to deal with by pointing out that one can interpret the Bible much like one does almost any text, and that literalism isn’t the only way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/103 "2012-12-13T17:13:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > That wasn’t the question my posts were meant to address at all. I was taken aback by your understanding of a literalist interpretation of the Bible, but not of a more nuanced, reasonable interpretation. If that was not what you meant, I apologize for wasting your time. That’s an excellent way of putting it. My answer is that I can see that there is one, or a very few, ways of interpreting the Bible literally. However there are a very large number of nuanced ways of doing so. We can see that the official Catholic view is very different from liberal views - and Catholics are clearly not literalists. So, how does a person pick from one of these many interpretations, especially when they want to force their interpretation on others. My best guess, from what I’ve seen, is that no one starts from the Bible but instead they start from a moral view based on culture, upbringing, and maybe some genetics. Then they read the Bible through this filter. If you are naturally liberal, you focus on God’s love and think SSM is fine. If you are naturally conservative you focus on the few passages talking about homosexuality and decide it is sinful. Which means that the Bible has no real moral authority, since something with moral authority (especially inspired by a deity) shouldn’t be able to be used in this way. I sum it up by saying all morals are basically atheistic. Now, kids brainwashed into a certain view may think they are getting morals from the Bible, so I’m mostly considering independently derived moral codes. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/104 "2012-12-14T12:36:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s an excellent way of putting it. My answer is that I can see that there is one, or a very few, ways of interpreting the Bible literally. However there are a very large number of nuanced ways of doing so. We can see that the official Catholic view is very different from liberal views - and Catholics are clearly not literalists. So, how does a person pick from one of these many interpretations, especially when they want to force their interpretation on others. > > My best guess, from what I’ve seen, is that no one starts from the Bible but instead they start from a moral view based on culture, upbringing, and maybe some genetics. Then they read the Bible through this filter. If you are naturally liberal, you focus on God’s love and think SSM is fine. If you are naturally conservative you focus on the few passages talking about homosexuality and decide it is sinful. Which means that the Bible has no real moral authority, since something with moral authority (especially inspired by a deity) shouldn’t be able to be used in this way. > I sum it up by saying all morals are basically atheistic. > Now, kids brainwashed into a certain view may think they are getting morals from the Bible, so I’m mostly considering independently derived moral codes. I think that because so many people who use the Bible as their way of faith, have never read the whole Bible or thought about what they have read. We have a fudnamentalist friend who didn’t know the Psalmist said; " I said you are gods and sons’ of the most high", or that in John 10 Jesus backed up this psalm when he was accused of blasphemy. They never hear a sermon on the contridictions but pick and choose what sounds good. I have no objection to that if it helps them be a better person, but one needs to consider who and why the Bible was written, and one can see it is the words of other humans and their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![sylviaholman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@sylviaholman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylviaholman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/105 "2014-06-06T05:33:33Z")
[gotquestions.org](http://gotquestions.org) will answer a lot of your questions ---
**Author:** ![sylviaholman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@sylviaholman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylviaholman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/106 "2014-06-06T05:42:26Z")
God didn’t create sin or evil, but he allowed it to happen. This is for 2 reasons. First of all, if He did’t allow it to be possible for us to disobey him, we would be like robots with only one option: complete obedience. if our only option was to love and obey God, that’s not really love. true love only exists when it is chosen from an alternative. as for the second reason he allowed for sin and evil to enter the world, he had a plan from the beginning to fix it. he knew it would happen before he laid the foundations of the world and had a solution: Jesus. God would send his son to earth and let him be killed by us humans so that he would pay the price for our sins and make us right with god. god let it happen to show us how much he loves us despite all the bad stuff we do. and THAT is true love. love that loves despite the imperfection of its object. it would be easy for god to love us if we were perfect and it wouldnt be that big of a deal. but were not, and he still does. god desperately wants all of us to be made right with him so that we can have a relationship with him. and he wants you. bad. everything i have said can be found in the bible. if you want to know where, just ask. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/107 "2014-06-06T06:06:14Z")
Your god seems to be a bit clingy to me, And the way he manipulates events and people is rather sick and underhanded. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/108 "2014-06-06T06:17:41Z")
> [@sylviaholman](#): > > God didn’t create sin or evil, but he allowed it to happen. No, he is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, so assuming he actually existed everything that has ever happened, happened only because he planned it from the beginning. > [@sylviaholman](#): > > as for the second reason he allowed for sin and evil to enter the world, he had a plan from the beginning to fix it. he knew it would happen before he laid the foundations of the world and had a solution: Jesus. > God would send his son to earth and let him be killed by us humans so that he would pay the price for our sins and make us right with god. god let it happen to show us how much he loves us despite all the bad stuff we do. and THAT is true love. No, it’s not love, it’s lunacy. I know it’s a standard bit of Christian theology, but it makes the Christian god out to be a lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/109 "2014-06-06T06:47:52Z")
> [@sylviaholman](#): > > . . . God would send his son to earth and let him be killed by us humans so that he would pay the price for our sins and make us right with god. god let it happen to show us how much he loves us despite all the bad stuff we do. and THAT is true love. . . . **Der Trihs** is right: that’s lunacy. God is supposedly all powerful. He doesn’t need to sacrifice his own son to himself. That’s drama queen crap. He just issues a decree. Why should he “pay the price” to himself? “Gee, I think it’s time I got over my anger with my neighbor. But first, I’m going to cut off my own foot, to pay the price for my forgiveness.” Too screwy. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/110 "2014-06-06T06:55:18Z")
Interesting thread. The OP should widen his reading on ghosts though. There are stories of hauntings involving ghosts of all periods - cavemen ghosts haunting caves, crusader ghosts haunting castles, There are some cracking yarns from classical times telling of haunted houses, visitations from the dead, etc. One thing that is perennial is the human imagination. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/111 "2014-06-06T07:59:42Z")
> [@sylviaholman](#): > > God would send his son to earth and let him be killed by us humans so that he would pay the price for our sins and make us right with god. god let it happen to show us how much he loves us despite all the bad stuff we do. and THAT is true love. love that loves despite the imperfection of its object. it would be easy for god to love us if we were perfect and it wouldnt be that big of a deal. but were not, and he still does. god desperately wants all of us to be made right with him so that we can have a relationship with him. and he wants you. bad. I fail to see how submitting your only son to unimaginable pain and torture counts as “true love” – maybe in some twisted domestic abuse scenario, which actually kinda explains a lot. Thing is, Jesus’ supposed “sacrifice” doesn’t impress me. Yeah, he suffered & died, but then he rose again from the dead. 37 years suffering as a human suffers would be a mere eyeblink in the long run of eternity. And here’s the kicker – he’s GOD. He’s immortal and eternal. He has the power to block out any sort of pain, as if it never happened. So…what _was_ the sacrifice? What did God lose? Absolutely nothing. Now, if the mythology of the Bible said that Jesus (or whoever) paid the ultimate spiritual sacrifice and “took the fall” all the way down, to spend eternity suffering in HELL for all mankind, I’d be a lot more impressed. It wouldn’t necessarily make me a believer, of course, but damn I’d be impressed. > [@sylviaholman](#): > > everything i have said can be found in the bible. if you want to know where, just ask. Everything I have learned about proper capitalization can be found in Strunk & White’s _The Elements of Style._ If you want to know where, just ask. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/112 "2014-06-06T13:15:14Z")
The biggest argument against God is just how human he is described. He’s vindictive, petty, jealous, easily angered and inconsistent. As the title states, he just is not godly. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/113 "2014-06-06T14:27:36Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > He’s vindictive, petty, jealous, easily angered and inconsistent. Yes, it has already been suggested that God is a She. (_ducks_) > [@](#): > > As the title states, he just is not godly. Or we have misunderstood and God just isn’t about love at all. I mean, look at the world he created. Sure it looks pretty, from a distance, but zoom in to animal level and it is one continuous horror show of creatures murdering each other. Sometimes quite ingenuously, as if to suggest that indeed some (sick) mind created it all. Giving us humans a sense of justice and love was just another sadistic twist of this God who then proceeded to put us in a world that is not just and where love is lost all the time. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/114 "2014-06-06T15:42:38Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > I fail to see how submitting your only son to unimaginable pain and torture counts as “true love” – maybe in some twisted domestic abuse scenario, which actually kinda explains a lot. > > Thing is, Jesus’ supposed “sacrifice” doesn’t impress me. Yeah, he suffered & died, but then he rose again from the dead. 37 years suffering as a human suffers would be a mere eyeblink in the long run of eternity. And here’s the kicker – he’s GOD. He’s immortal and eternal. He has the power to block out any sort of pain, as if it never happened. So…what _was_ the sacrifice? What did God lose? Absolutely nothing. > > Now, if the mythology of the Bible said that Jesus (or whoever) paid the ultimate spiritual sacrifice and “took the fall” all the way down, to spend eternity suffering in HELL for all mankind, I’d be a lot more impressed. It wouldn’t necessarily make me a believer, of course, but damn I’d be impressed. Or you could believe in a different form of atonement. Penal Substitution is only like 500 years old anyways (Anselmian substitutionary atonement is about 1000 years old, I guess). I prefer Christus Victor (which the Lutheran theologian Gustav Aulen says is the view of atonement that the early church leaders had - and perhaps he’s right on that, but regardless of how old the theory may be, it makes better sense to me anyways). The theory there is not that God the Son took our place in the form of suffering for our sins or our lack of honor given, but that God the Son entered into death in order to defeat it from the inside out. It isn’t about the suffering, per se, but rather to help free humanity from the power of sin and death, Christ had to enter into both and defeat them, through His resurrection. And then we are able to also be freed from those things, through His journey. This view of the atonement doesn’t set God against Himself as does the penal substitution stuff, nor does the particulars of the ‘sacrifice’ and suffering hold such sway. There are also other theories of atonement, such as Girard’s final scapegoat theory of atonement (the scapegoat is a social device designed to mitigate the violence that arises through mimetic desire and society later rationalizes that the scapegoat deserved it - Christ, however, becomes the scapegoat in 1st Century Judea and definitively shows that the scapegoat doesn’t deserve it which leads to a rethinking of power structures, etc, etc). Anyways, all this to say that I (as a Christian) agree that penal substitution (and even the enter concept of substitutionary atonement) doesn’t make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/115 "2014-06-06T17:44:08Z")
> [@sylviaholman](#): > > [gotquestions.org](http://gotquestions.org) will answer a lot of your questions I did just that, asking the question [Why did God also destroy animals in the Flood?"](http://www.gotquestions.org/animals-destroyed-Flood.html) The assumptions made in answering that question are both mystifying and amusing. > [@](#): > > First, it should be noted that God did not destroy all animal life. Two of every kind of unclean animal were placed on the ark, and seven of every clean animal (Genesis 7:1-4). In addition, sea life was not harmed. The destruction included land animals and birds. I guess fish are special for some unexplained reason. But still, why kill all the land animals and birds? > [@](#): > > We can assume that, in some way, animal life had become corrupted along with human life. Genesis 6:13 states, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them.” The phrase “all flesh” is used throughout the narrative to include both human and animal life. How was animal life corrupted? This is not explained. Some have suggested the use of animals in sinful, pagan sacrifices as the reason. Others have considered that the violence filling the earth was due, in part, to animals (this would correspond with the theory of large dinosaurs being destroyed by the Flood). Regardless of how the animals became corrupted, God viewed them as part of creation that needed to be recreated. Bizarre reasoning there, if you ask me. Does that mean if a child is used unwillingly in a sinful act _all_ not only has _that_ child been corrupted, but _all_ children have been corrupted also? How do you corrupt a hummingbird, spider or ant? Oh, and all those dinosaurs that were drowned in the Flood? What about the ones that lived in the water? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/116 "2014-06-06T23:20:45Z")
This thread is why I prefer evolutionary theory. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/117 "2014-06-07T00:18:00Z")
> [@sylviaholman](#): > > [gotquestions.org](http://gotquestions.org) will answer a lot of your questions What makes that siite better than the 6 gazillion other sites out there purporting to do the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/118 "2014-06-07T00:46:35Z")
Ooh, ooh, can I make a zombie Jesus joke? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/119 "2014-06-07T00:47:58Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Ooh, ooh, can I make a zombie Jesus joke? Sorry, too late-The Bible already did. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494/120 "2014-06-08T23:01:21Z")
Oh. Nevermind… [/QUOTE] You should post this at [ex-christian.net](http://ex-christian.net). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-doesnt-seem-very-godly-to-me/643494.md?page=7)