# God forbid we teach our kids
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 26, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853 "2002-11-26T06:46:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/1 "2002-11-26T06:46:05Z")
According to this piece that ran as the first story on Tucson’s own KGUN9 news today at 6pm, a local junior high school teacher has struck a blow for the Secret Gay Agenda. Here’s the gist of it:
> [@](#):
>
> The principal at Wilson says last Friday- without his knowledge- a member from the group Wingspan came and spoke to about 60 6th, 7th and 8th graders.
> Wingspan is a group which supports the gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender community.
> Now- school officials want to know why they did not know about the presentation before hand, and exactly what those students were told.
> Kindergarten through eighth grade students at Wilson School study pretty basic cirriculum-
> but on Friday, 58 6th, 7th and 8th graders received an unexpected lesson on a pretty controversial issue- gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender lifestyles.
> “I was shocked and surprised.” Amphi Board member Ken Smith says the presentation was completely unexpected because the life skills teacher who invited the speaker did so without getting permission.
> Smith says the teacher made an error in judgement. “The administration would have placed restrictions upon that speaker if the speaker had been allowed to speak at all.”
> Wingspan executive director Kent Burbank says the presentation given by one of his members was meant to educate the school about protecting the young gay and transgender student population from harassment and violence. “Our staff member went in just to talk to them about definitions of what it is to be a lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender person, talked a little bit about the stereotypes that are commonly found particularly among that age group.”
> Burbank says the students at Wilson were also shown a video about a 16-year-old transgender.
> Students were also given this pamphlet called “Queer Voice” which encourages youth to get involved in Wingspan programs.
The teacher is apparently going to be disciplined for his actions.
His actions being, of course, the dissemination of information that is essential to the survival of the gay population of the school.
But of course, the lives of the gay students don’t matter. What matters is that the precious ears of the straight students might be defiled by hearing the dreaded words “homosexual” “gay” and “lesbian” in a non-derogatory fashion. Never mind that one in four of gay teens will [attempt suicide](http://www.glccftl.org/library/youthgroup/suicide_fact_sheet.html). Never mind that anti-gay epithets are the most common form of verbal bullying in schools, or that every single gay student in that school hears anti-gay slurs every day of his or her school career. Never mind that gay kids are in desperate need of information about their sexuality, and probably can’t turn to their families about it. The important thing here is the straight kids, and that they might hear that being gay is not abominable.
Of course, we don’t know a lot of facts after reading that story. We don’t know, for instance, where the 58 kids came from; were they just a bunch of health classes, or were they kids who had voiced an interest in this subject? We don’t know if all presentations scheduled by all the teachers in the Tucson school district have to be cleared by the Board, or if it’s just the presentations on subjects which the Board sees as controversial. We don’t know if any of the students, or any of the parents of any of the students, complained. Which is about par for this particular TV station’s news department.
The presentation wasn’t by a fly-by-night organization; it was by [Wingspan](http://www.wingspanaz.org/), a well-respected group in the Tucson community, who have an enormous amount of experience in giving outreach presentations. The QueerVoice pamphlet was for Southern Arizona’s safe haven for gay, lesbian and transgendered youth, whose mission statement reads: “Queer Voice seeks to assist Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender youth with support and information so that they can make safe and healthy decisions for life.” And yet, all of this means nothing to a school board member who would shield students from even the mention of the word “gay,” except for when it’s hurled as an insult.
But I want to thank the teacher that was brave enough, and foolish enough, to try and educate these students about this subject. Perhaps he had more confidence in the sanity of the system than he should have, and judged that the time of rampant homophobia in the schools was past. Perhaps he didn’t think through the possible consequences of his actions in a rigidly inflexible educational enviroment. Until I hear differently, though, I choose to think that he just cared enough about his students, all his students, to bring this issue to their attention so that they might have an easier time dealing with their lives, despite the risk to his career. Perhaps he just didn’t want to see some of his students kill themselves over something that a little education could have helped them with enormously.
I hope he fights this. I hope he can convince the school board that the only thing he’s guilty of is educating children, of teaching them to be better, healthier, more tolerant human beings. I don’t have much hope that things will turn out that way, and I don’t have any hope that KGUN9 news will cover it if they do; it’s just not sensational enough.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/2 "2002-11-26T06:54:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MrVisible \*
> \*\*
> I hope he fights this. I hope he can convince the school board that the only thing he’s guilty of is educating children, of teaching them to be better, healthier, more tolerant human beings. I don’t have much hope that things will turn out that way, and I don’t have any hope that KGUN9 news will cover it if they do; it’s just not sensational enough. \*\*
In some school districts it is policy to tell parents about something which may prove controversial. Like it or not homosexuality and transgenderism is still controversial in many places. If the teacher didn’t follow whatever standards his school has regarding subject matter or special guest then he deserves a slap on the wrist.
Marc
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/3 "2002-11-26T07:04:19Z")
It’s time we stopped pandering to the bigotry of parents. schools would not feel obliged to get permission to teach students about racial tolerance, and any parent who did complain would get told to fuck right off. We need to start eradicating homophobia in schools, and parents that have a problem with it can just go fuck themselves.
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### Author:  [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/4 "2002-11-26T07:59:09Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MrVisible \*
> \*\*The teacher is apparently going to be disciplined for his actions.
>
> His actions being, of course, the dissemination of information that is essential to the survival of the gay population of the school.
> \*\*
Umm…no.
He wouldn’t be disciplined for anything he did. Rather, he’d be disciplined for what he didn’t do, namely request permission for a speaker to come and present.
In my school district it was common practice, and probably policy for teachers to inform/request permission from administrators whenever they wanted someone to speak. Didn’t matter what the topic was.
I’m guessing that’s what the case is here, until I hear otherwise. I don’t like to assume the worst.
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### Author:  [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/5 "2002-11-26T08:22:43Z")
_sigh_
It’s at times like these that I realize that the Libertarians are not so nutty when they say that it is wrong to have the government forcibly provide education. Little fascists like **Diogenes** always end up deciding what is in the best interests of your children and forcing it on them whether you like it or not.
I despise the idea that you have any right to force your opinions and beliefs about sexual identity of all things on kids at such an age. In a world where we demand permission slips for simple health classes, you think that you can just give a talk on homosexuality, et al, without any concern for the parents ideas?
You are the same sort of person who would be in an uproar over anything in a textbook that was found to be “insensitive” to any little group, and to then not just be insensitive, but too completely, and contemptuously disregard the right, thoughts, and feelings of the parents is disgusting and hypocritical.
> [@](#):
>
> The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech.
> The real Diogenes, circa 350 BCE
Yeah, so long as it is your speech. Otherwise, they can go fuck themselves.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/6 "2002-11-26T08:58:19Z")
I just want to say this before the inevitable **Maud’Dib** roast-a-thon gets underway: While I have no problem with organizations like Wingspan speaking to schools, I do have a problem with teachers being able to schedule them without any sort of oversight. If this guy can bring in Wingspan, the next guy might bring in Fred Phelps.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/7 "2002-11-26T09:26:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> \*\*It’s time we stopped pandering to the bigotry of parents. schools would not feel obliged to get permission to teach students about racial tolerance, and any parent who did complain would get told to fuck right off. We need to start eradicating homophobia in schools, and parents that have a problem with it can just go fuck themselves. \*\*
Fully agree…
(Sorry for the “me too” post, I had nothing to add, but couldn’t help myself…)
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### Author:  [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/8 "2002-11-26T10:32:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Muad’Dib \*
> \*\*
> I despise the idea that you have any right to force your opinions and beliefs about sexual identity of all things on kids at such an age. In a world where we demand permission slips for simple health classes, you think that you can just give a talk on homosexuality, et al, without any concern for the parents ideas?
>
> You are the same sort of person who would be in an uproar over anything in a textbook that was found to be “insensitive” to any little group, and to then not just be insensitive, but too completely, and contemptuously disregard the right, thoughts, and feelings of the parents is disgusting and hypocritical.
>
> Yeah, so long as it is your speech. Otherwise, they can go fuck themselves. \*\*
You confused me with that one… **Diogenes** seemed to be saying “Freedom of speech” in regards to allowing homosexual topics…but you use that quote of the ‘real Diogenes’ to attack her, after saying that people shouldn’t be allowed the right to freedom of speech without consulting parents first…
I am 😕
Plus your “insensitive” paragraph is a run-on that I’m having a hard time trying to decipher all of the commas…I get the gist, I think, but you might want to clarify.
I am sorry, but I disagree with the parental roles in determining education. That power is what gives you situations where evolution is banned from being taught in school, as well as basic human sexuality courses (the ones where students are taught that if you stick tab A into slot B without protection you can get pregnant or sick or dead).
-Tcat
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### Author:  [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/9 "2002-11-26T10:50:30Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I despise the idea that you have any right to force your opinions and beliefs about sexual identity of all things on kids at such an age. In a world where we demand permission slips for simple health classes, you think that you can just give a talk on homosexuality, et al, without any concern for the parents ideas?
Teach them to tolerate at an early age. Brilliant idea.
That said, permission should have been sought. the School board would be assholes for not letting them speak.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/10 "2002-11-26T11:10:28Z")
I don’t see why Muad’Dib should be roasted for wanting to decide what his children learn and when.
Diogenes wrote:
> [@](#):
>
> It’s time we stopped pandering to the bigotry of parents. schools would not feel obliged to get permission to teach students about racial tolerance, and any parent who did complain would get told to fuck right off. We need to start eradicating homophobia in schools, and parents that have a problem with it can just go fuck themselves.
Suppose I decided that it was high time we stopped shielding children from the ignorance of parents and start teaching them to use firearms responsibly. Would this sit well with you? And if not, why not? Why should you have more say than I have in what your children are taught?
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/11 "2002-11-26T11:11:32Z")
Oh, yeah, and suppose that if you protested, I told you that you can just go fuck yourself. Would that be okay?
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/12 "2002-11-26T11:18:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It’s time we stopped pandering to the bigotry of parents. schools would not feel obliged to get permission to teach students about racial tolerance, and any parent who did complain would get told to fuck right off. We need to start eradicating homophobia in schools, and parents that have a problem with it can just go fuck themselves.
It’s time we stopped pandering to the bigotry of people opposed to child porn. schools would not feel obliged to get permission to take pornographic pictures of students, and any parent who did complain would get told to fuck right off. We need to start eradicating pedophobia in schools, and parents that have a problem with it can just go fuck themselves.
(This post brought to you by the Nuderia Parody Society, telling everyone that violently advocating the taking control of someone else’s kids isn’t the answer.)
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/13 "2002-11-26T11:24:32Z")
Bravo, Lib, bra-vo.
Tomcat, I think parents should be MORE involved in education, not less. It is the abdication of that responsibility that has left all manner of nonacademic crap (such as this) shoved onto the plate of our schools. It is not up to the school to mold children into perfect little PC Americans, all willing to “tolerate” whatever the principal thinks is good.
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### Author:  [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/14 "2002-11-26T11:47:52Z")
When I taught, and this was years ago, someone from outside the school couldn’t come into the building during the day to give a presentation without a letter of approval from the school board. They literally would not have been able to get any further than the school office. (I taught in a district that was very, very big on security.)
That said, yesterday morning I happened to watch the [John Walsh Show](http://www.johnwalsh.tv) and his focus was on transgendered kids who were murdered, particularly [Gwen Aruajo](http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/4842263p-5855552c.html), and the hardships that are faced by TG kids in schools. One young transgender woman described how she couldn’t even use the restroom in school because she’d get in trouble using the women’s room, but had been assaulted in the men’s room, and how school administrators were more than happy to blame her and had no help to offer except telling her that if she weren’t transgendered, she wouldn’t have to deal with the violence, threats and bullying she deals with every day.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe for one minute that there aren’t a lot of schools that would give the exact same response. It’s not just the kids who need to be given the awareness and tolerance message, it’s the administrators, too.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Muad’Dib \*
> **I despise the idea that you have any right to force your opinions and beliefs about sexual identity of all things on kids at such an age. In a world where we demand permission slips for simple health classes, you think that you can just give a talk on homosexuality, et al, without any concern for the parents ideas?**
Where do you get the idea that this was anybody _forcing_ “opinions and beliefs” about “sexual identity” (of all things) on anybody?
And what opinions and beliefs about sexual identity are so dangerous that kids (at ages when they are well aware of sexuality and homosexuality, as well) need to be shielded from them? That LGBT people exist? That they have LGBT peers? That those peers should not be treated any differently because of their LGBT status?
Check the quote again. The controversial program, the one that a board member says that would’ve necessitated restrictions and perhaps outright censoring was intended to _educate the school about protecting the young gay and transgender student population from harassment and violence._ This wasn’t some graphic presentation to a bunch of 11 year olds on the ways and means of gay sex, this was about treating others with respect and basic tolerance regardless of their differences. How that can be controversial boggles the mind.
I’ve got agree with **Diogenes** – while it’s just a guess that this is what the speaker focused on – that the objections of any parent to something like this isn’t worth any attention whatsoever.
So to sum up, if I may: 😃
- Teacher: good intentions, but failure to get permission really stupid
- Program: great idea
- Objecting parents and school board members: reactionary fools who really, really, really aren’t getting the big picture
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/15 "2002-11-26T12:05:30Z")
Tlw wrote:
> [@](#):
>
> And what opinions and beliefs about sexual identity are so dangerous that kids (at ages when they are well aware of sexuality and homosexuality, as well) need to be shielded from them? That LGBT people exist? That they have LGBT peers? That those peers should not be treated any differently because of their LGBT status?
Those sound, to me, like questions that parents ought to answer on behalf of their own children.
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### Author:  [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/16 "2002-11-26T12:08:23Z")
I could see this being appropriate for high-school. With permission and voluntary attendence.
But these are kids who are 11, 12 and 13. Some of whom haven’t even hit puberty yet and probably half whom have absolutely no interest in the opposite sex, nevermind questioning feelings about attraction for the same sex.
Above anything else the material was inappropriate for the age group.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/17 "2002-11-26T12:34:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Eidolon909 \*
> I could see this being appropriate for high-school. With permission and voluntary attendence.
>
> But these are kids who are 11, 12 and 13. Some of whom haven’t even hit puberty yet and probably half whom have absolutely no interest in the opposite sex, nevermind questioning feelings about attraction for the same sex.
>
> Above anything else the material was inappropriate for the age group.
God forbid we tell children younger than 17 about LGBT people - I mean, they couldn’t _possibly_ have one in their family, right? Couldn’t possibly _be_ one themself?
When I was 10 it was becoming pretty clear to all and sundry that my oldest sister was as queer as a three dollar bill. Do you think I didn’t see that? Do you think I didn’t have questions?
What the FUCK is a kid in that position supposed to do? Write down his/her questions and lock them up for 5 or 8 years until they’re “old enough” that that is “appropriate” to discuss? Talk to my parents? You think THEY were dealing with this gracefully? It was 1975!!!
Multiply that by all the number of families with LGBT offspring.
Sometimes a kid _needs_ to talk to someone outside the family situation, someone objective, who will give them good information.
Do I think folks should just drag in any old speaker without permission into a school? No, I don’t think that either. And if this teacher gets fired the message to the kids will be LGBT issues are SOOOO DANGEROUS that they can get you fired from your job just for talking about them. Uh, yeah, way to go, guys. Talk about a backfire.
If we can talk to six year olds about why we have girl toilets and boy toilets, and discuss how to avoid child molesters with the same age group (using age appropriate materials) we can damn well dicuss LGBT issues _with age appropriate terms and topics_ with the same kids. This is NOT a “how to” manual, but a simple discussion of “A few people grow up and find they like their own gender instead of being interested in the opposite gender. Some people think this is a bad thing and treat these people badly, but they’re just people like most everyone else except for this one difference. They shouldn’t be hurt or called names because of it anymore than we make fun of people of different religions or skin color” WOULD be very appropriate for even a very young child.
I don’t understand the thinking behind “protecting” kids from the knowledge that LGBT people exist - do you think they won’t find out? They will - much sooner than you anticipate. Do you think they don’t find out about kissing and marriage and babymaking before puberty? Well, maybe if they live on a farm in Iowa… or in Montana where the nearest neighbor is 20 miles away… and they don’t have cable or satellite TV and no video player or computer acess to the Internet…
To sum up - you can discuss the existance of LGBT people and how they should be treated in society WITHOUT discussing sexual intercourse or other details “adults” are uncomfortable with.
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### Author:  [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/18 "2002-11-26T12:51:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Libertarian \*
> \*\*Those sound, to me, like questions that parents ought to answer on behalf of their own children. \*\*
Why, because we’re talking about sexual minorities? Take the LGBT factor out of it and you’re talking about issues of basic humanity: treat other people with kindness and respect, period. That such a message could be considered inflammatory enough to need parental intervention is frightening beyond words.
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Eidolon909 \*
> [BBut these are kids who are 11, 12 and 13. Some of whom haven’t even hit puberty yet and probably half whom have absolutely no interest in the opposite sex, nevermind questioning feelings about attraction for the same sex._\*
You don’t know many kids that age, do you?
Besides, how does the sexuality of any of the individual kids make the message that they were receiving any less important or relevant?
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### Author:  [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/19 "2002-11-26T12:54:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Broomstick \*
> \*\*God forbid we tell children younger than 17 about LGBT people - I mean, they couldn’t _possibly_ have one in their family, right?
> \*\*
High-school starts at 17 where you’re from then?
> [@](#):
>
> **Couldn’t possibly _be_ one themself?**
An 11 year old lacks the capacity to decide whether they are gay or not. And given how difficult being homosexual is in this world, its not something they need to be saddled thinking about at that early age.
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### Author:  [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/20 "2002-11-26T13:03:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by tlw \*
> \*\*You don’t know many kids that age, do you?
> \*\*
Oh, only about 160 or so. Given those are the ages I teach. :rolleyes:
The vast majority of the grade six kids have zero interest in the opposite sex. A tiny handful of the Grade 8’s have a boyfriend/girlfriend.
> [@](#):
>
> **Besides, how does the sexuality of any of the individual kids make the message that they were receiving any less important or relevant?**
It doesn’t. The message is irrelevant, period, at that age. Kids call each other “fag”. So what? They call each other “motherfucker” as well. Its an insult, its not meant as a true indicator. Or should we being educating kids on the fact that no, Johnny does not in fact, have sex with his mother?
I’m not against LGBT education per se, only the age at which its introduced.
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