# God forbid we teach our kids **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853 "2002-11-26T06:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/261 "2002-11-27T01:10:41Z")
I’m sorry for hurting your feelings, **Guin** You are a sweet person. **Witch** and **In conceivable** , right back atcha. both of you think that people like me are so dangerous to children that you do not wish the topic to be discussed, then no, I don’t think you are tolerant or even nice people. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/262 "2002-11-27T01:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\*Okay, from the [Amphi High School Policy Manual](http://lp.scantech.cc/asba/public/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm)… > So, it’s up to the school administration. Not the school board. And the only thing that the teacher is currently accused of is not notifying the school board. Which he wasn’t required to do. \*\* 1. You quoted the Amphi **High School** policy manual, correct? And the incident occured at Wilson **K-8 School**? You realize that these are different schools…serving different ages, correct? 2. I went to the KGUN web [web site](http://www.kgun9.com/story.asp?TitleID=2855&ProgramOption=News). And the story that **you** provided in the OP says that > [@](#): > > An Amphi School District teacher is under investigation for inviting a certain speaker to talk to middle schoolers without administrative approval, or parental consent. > The principal at Wilson says last Friday- without his knowledge- a member from the group Wingspan came and spoke to about 60 6th, 7th and 8th graders. So…even IF the **middle school** has the same policy as the high school. That policy requires the teacher to vet said speakers through the local administrator. According to the second paragraph, the local administrator **was not notified**. Again. Please explain to me the outrage over the reaction. The story that YOU linked to says that the teacher did NOT vet the speaker through the building administrator. THAT seems to be the cause for concern. You may wish to debate whether a teacher **should** have to vet such a speaker…but that really **is** a different debate than whether this teacher violated existing building or district policy! ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/263 "2002-11-27T01:12:14Z")
gobear, you really are an idiot. we’re talking about 11 year olds. Parents should have input into that sort of thing. They may not have even told their children about the birds and the bees yet. Wake the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/264 "2002-11-27T01:13:14Z")
Well, thanks. I think you can be a pretty decent guy-even if you ARE as stubborn as you say **Jodi** is. As for Catholics, let’s just agree to disagree. (You know, maybe this thread is reason enough to get parental permission-to avoid fist fights?) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/265 "2002-11-27T01:15:32Z")
> [@](#): > > gobear, you really are an idiot. we’re talking about 11 year olds. Parents should have input into that sort of thing. They may not have even told their children about the birds and the bees yet. Birds and the bees? We’re talking about 6-graders on the cusp of puberty. If you think they don’t already know about sex , then I suggest that you wake the fuck up. If we were talking about six-year-olds, I’d be in your corner. But middle school is exactly the time for kids to get the right information. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/266 "2002-11-27T01:19:21Z")
Well, maybe mom and dad haven’t told them. But by 11 years old, surely a friend has! (Admittedly, I didn’t know about the birds and the bees until I was ten-I mean, how babies were made, but I knew about gays and lesbians since I was nine). ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/267 "2002-11-27T01:20:20Z")
I don’t believe this. The amount of ignorance in this thread is staggering. The linked issue has nothing at all to do with gay rights or tolerance. A teacher schedules a presentation. She may or may not have followed the proper procedures, but right now I’m assuming she did not. The school board is angered because she scheduled a presentation without asking them for permission, as per procedure. The inappropriateness of this is perhaps excarbated by the fact that the presentation included views that may or may not have been controversial (were they? the school board doesn’t know, nobody asked them about it or briefed them about it). Notice how homosexuality doesn’t enter into this discussion at all? Or censorship? Or dying teenagers? Whether this was a presentation by a gay rights group, or the Republican Party, or Fred Phelps, or NAMBLA, the teacher _should have followed procedure_. Perhaps procedure was often disregarded at this school. That has no impact on the teacher’s responsibility in this situation, especially because the speaker/organization in question may have been controversial. Would the speaker have been censored? We don’t know, because the teacher did not ask the district for permission. And notice how she needed to ask the district for permission, _not_ individual parents. This makes the debate of the last 3 pages or so a total straw man. The issue here is not parents censoring homosexual tolerance, but the district’s stance on whatever it was that Wingspan talked about. Was Wingspan’s message age-appropriate? The district has no way to guarantee that (by whatever standards they use to define age-appropriate) if they have no knowledge of the speaker or the topic being presented. And that’s the real issue here. Whoever is responsible for teaching children in a public school needs to know what is being taught to properly carry out their duties. From what I have read from the links (first one didn’t appear to go anywhere, btw), the district did not know what was being taught, and this is an untenable position. Having said that, if it somehow comes out that the teacher _did_ follow procedure, then the whole thing seems to boil down to one school board member throwing a hissy fit. But from all available evidence, this does not seem to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/268 "2002-11-27T01:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I’m sorry for hurting your feelings, **Guin** You are a sweet person. > > **Witch** and **In conceivable** , right back atcha. both of you think that people like me are so dangerous to children that you do not wish the topic to be discussed, then no, I don’t think you are tolerant or even nice people. \*\* This is the last time I am going to say this to you **gobear**. I DON’T FUCKING SAY THAT YOU FUCKING IDIOT!! I wouldn’t want you personally around my children because I wouldn’t want your brand of hateful nasty jerkish “tolerance” around them. But I don’t think gay people are dangerous. AND I NEVER SAID THAT. I don’t think that the topic should never be discussed with anyone. AND I NEVER SAID THAT. I think that it should be discussed by parents and perhaps in high school. I think that parents have the right to be notified. I have serious doubts as to the age appropriateness of the presentation. \*\*Especially because from the website of **Wingspan** their youth programs are not even geared towards preteens. \*\* If you don’t think that I am a nice person I can live with that. Because I really don’t care what people who obviously can’t read think about me. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/269 "2002-11-27T01:28:47Z")
Witch, you wake the fuck up. Schools teach kids about sex regardless of whether the kids have heard the “birds and bees” from their parents, Witch. Why should that matter? We had our first hints at sex-ed in 7th grade. Why, when we’re dealing with sex and sexuality, can’t we include something that acknowledges that gay people exist, that there’s nothing wrong with them – they’re not evil, they’re not sick in the head, they’re not perverted – that they didn’t pick being gay. It could save a fucking life. That’s worth all the uncomfortable parents in the world. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/270 "2002-11-27T01:34:13Z")
{b]Thank you super gnat \*\*. Go read that post over and over again **gobear**. You will be quizzed in the morning. And then kicked up the ass for being such a shit stirrer. I hear ya **Guin** about hearing about that stuff from your peers. My point is as parents you can’t control what they hear that way, but you should have some sort of heads up on what they’re learning in the classroom. And of course, the most important thing to do is to help the assimilate everything they hear from all sources. I agree by 11 parents should have taught their children at least the basics, but as I’ve stated before, if it’s NOT MY KID, IT’s NOT MY CALL. and it should’nt be the school’s either. And that’s the point I’ve been making all along. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/271 "2002-11-27T01:50:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Witch_ > > if it’s NOT MY KID, IT’s NOT MY CALL. and it should’nt be the school’s either. The hell it isn’t. the school has a responsibility to protect its students, ALL its students from bigotry and harrassment. they cannot afford to let their educational policies be hijacked by bigoted, ignorant parents. ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/272 "2002-11-27T01:51:26Z")
I’ve not read every single post in this thread (can ya blame me? There’s nearly 300 of 'em). However, if this question hasn’t been answered can someone please do so for me? **If you support the right for a teacher to book a speech by a representative from Wingspan to talk disseminate information about homosexuality without the parents consent, would it not, by the same token, be hypocritical to oppose the right of another teacher to book His4Ever to speak at your local school to tell the children there how homosexuality is a sin?** If this question has been answered, just ignore it. I would appreciate it, however, if you could refer me to the page of this thread on which it was answered. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![airdisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@airdisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/airdisc)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/273 "2002-11-27T01:54:02Z")
Kirk, you do realize you’re only hurting yourself with your bitterness toward Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/274 "2002-11-27T01:56:47Z")
Christ on a Christ Diogenes…I’m not talking the morality of ANY KIND of sexuality…I’m talking strictly the MECHANICS. Stop turning it into a fucking crusade. If you’re going to talk about sex to my 11 year old(ANY kind of sex) I want to fucking know about it, OK? You people simply can’t be that stupid. I refuse to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/275 "2002-11-27T01:57:12Z")
It’s a bullshit analogy. There is a difference between teaching tolerance and teaching bigotry. Your analogy (as I said earlier in the thread) is akin to saying that if a teacher brings in a speaker on racial equality, then another teacher should be able to bring in a KKK speaker ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/276 "2002-11-27T01:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **Kirk** -you, I am worried about. You seem EXTREMELY hostile, misanthropic and rabid beyond belief. Not in the real world. > [@](#): > > Have you ever considered seeing a counselor or a therapist? Yeah. It as boring. > [@](#): > > Because you come off as an extremely angry individual who still is NOT at peace with your life. Of course I’m angry – I live in a country that hates people like me, which is chock-full of scum like His4Ever. I am a second-class pseudo-citizen with only a few more civil rights than houseplant. And I was raised here. I was indoctrinated in this bullshit. So how could I ever be at peace with who I am? Didn’t you get the memos? Didn’t you hear the word? I’m scum. I’m a pervert. A child-molsetor in waiting. I’m evil incarnate, probably a devil worshiper, most certainly a Communist. I’m disease-ridden and mentally addled. I’m nothing more than kindling for the fires of Hell. That’s all I am. Ask that disgustingly slut His4Ever. Ask that wolf-in-sheeps-clothing Jodi. I’m a gay person, I’m the worst thing in the world. That’s what my community taught me, as a teen, who was gay, and couldn’t handle it. That’s what Jodi and that fucking bitch Witch want the world to teach the next generation of gay teens. They want to do to them what they did to me. I will never get over what was done to me. What I was taught to think about myself. It’s a lie, and it kills people. That’s what silence is. A lie, and it kills people. Anyone who supports silence, supports the death of gay teens. > [@](#): > > Please, think about it. At the very LEAST, you’re going to give yourself a heart attack within two years. I wish. But instead, I’ll probably live forever. To suffer more. That much is clear. If there is a God, he hates me, because he did this to me. So fuck him, and fuck anyone who takes the side of his so-called fan club on this. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/277 "2002-11-27T02:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gomez \* > If you support the right for a teacher to book a speech by a representative from Wingspan to talk disseminate information about homosexuality without the parents consent, would it not, by the same token, be hypocritical to oppose the right of another teacher to book **His4Ever** to speak at your local school to tell the children there how homosexuality is a sin? No. Because that would, in the end, kill people. The whole point is to save lives – specifically the lives of gay teens, who are an at-risk group of kids. We have to intervene on behalf of the gay students, the ones who are at risk, we have to protect them from the lies people like that fucking bitch you mentioned spread with glee. That whore would rather condemn and cause deaths than allow these gay teens to be told that they’re okay, they’re not evil, they’re not perverts, and maybe save lives. She is evil, to the core of her being, because of this, and so is anyone who would argue alongside her. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/278 "2002-11-27T02:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re going to talk about sex to my 11 year old(ANY kind of sex) I want to fucking know about it, OK? Talking about tolerance for gay people is talking about sex? And you call ME an idiot? Saying "Hey, kids, stop calling people ‘fags’ " is not “talking about sex,” you stupid woman! And I am not having any part of **Kirk’s** meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/279 "2002-11-27T02:02:27Z")
Oops, my question should read: > [@](#): > > If you support the right for a teacher to book a speech by a representative from Wingspan to talk disseminate information about homosexuality without the parents consent, would it not, by the same token, be hypocritical to oppose the right of another teacher to book His4Ever to speak at your local school to tell the children there how homosexuality is a sin **without the parents consent?** I think what a lot of people are missing is that there are many here who are concerned solely with the _principle_ of losing control over what their kids are taught be it homosexuailty, firearm safety, satanism, BDSM or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/280 "2002-11-27T02:02:50Z")
**Witch,** are you demanding simply to be informed, or are you saying you should be asked for your consent? I don’t have a problem with the former, I do with the latter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853.md?page=15)