# God forbid we teach our kids **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853 "2002-11-26T06:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/481 "2002-11-28T20:57:19Z")
This thread is long and I have homework to do, so fogive me if I missed this somewhere (I made it through to page 6, and it wasn’t really mentioned). I am all for parents having a say in what children are taught, and for sitting down with them, and supplementing their children with more information, and for being willing to HELP educate their children beyond what schools do. HOWEVER, Many parents don’t do this. Many parents seem to think that schools will teach everything, and get upset when they find out that little Jimmy in a public school hasn’t memorized the Bible yet, or can’t understand why their child is failing even though they never check for homewrok, or help out, or read to their kids, etc. **The good parents are far outnumbered by the bad ones**. If some parents can be counted on to provide a child with a pencil and eraser for school, or they never show up to parent-teacher nights, or never volunteer to help in the classroom, or never sign any permission slips other forms that get sent home, or never respond to communivation from the teachers, or never, not even ONCE, throughout a childs entire education, ask how they are doing…if people care that little about their children, how should these kids be raised? Who will teach them right and wrong? Who will give them support when they need it? Who will teach them that its OK to be different, and that it’s OK to have different feelings? The school, at some point, MUST pick up the slack, and as it is impossible to customize the curriculum to each individual child, its impossible to NOT teach everyone the same thing at the same ages. If half the parents thing 11 is too young, but the other half are fine with it, and even think a subject should be taught at a younger aga, then where’s the middle ground? You can’t pick and choose. You want better schools? Volunteer. Petition the government for more funding. Become a teacher. Don’t get upset when a school, or individual teacher, choses to teach about something that is a very VERY real fact of life. You are using that school system - if you don’t like it, don’t send your child there. They don’t have time to ask you if you approve of everything, much in the same way that you feel you shouldn’t have to tell the teachers how you teach your child at home. One of my high school friends (In Quebec, this was grade 7), was beaten up regularly by a group of her old “friends” because she was brave enough to come out at that young age. For a year or two, she struggled, alone in her fight, to be accepted, and in later years in high school, things went well for her. Parents of the bullies were contacted at the time, and NOTHING GOT DONE ABOUT IT. I remember overhearing one girl say that her dad was PROUD OF HER for beating my friend up!! Go tell my friend to her face that 11 or 12 is too young for her peers to have been taught NOT to beat her up because she was a lesbian. Go on, **I dare you**. The teacher made the right decision in exposing the kids to this subject matter. People NEED to learn this, and not enough people are teaching it, regardless of the age involved. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/482 "2002-11-28T21:39:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mnemosyne \* > \*\* > The teacher made the right decision in exposing the kids to this subject matter. People NEED to learn this, and not enough people are teaching it, regardless of the age involved. \*\* Well. No. The teacher should have followed school procedures for controversial topics. At this point it’s unclear if the teacher was “ignorant” of those procedures…willfully ignored them…or forgot. Like I’ve said earlier…these are pretty standard steps to follow in pretty near any public school system. Try it out yourself…call up your local school district and find out about their policy for controversial subject matter. Dollars to donuts, it’s probably fairly similar to the one in Tucson. Lastly, and as a separate matter from my first point above, there seems to be an assumption by many posters in this thread that OF COURSE the presentation by Wingspan will have it’s desired effect. I wonder if many of these people would ALSO be the same kind of folks who would ridicule a program like D.A.R.E. (which essentially tries to do a similar thing…change attitudes and influence future behavior). Have there been longitudinal studies about the efficacy of a program like Wingspan…or is the argument that “anything is better than nothing” when it comes to this topic. (much the same argument used by proponents of the D.A.R.E. program)? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/483 "2002-11-29T02:11:33Z")
(Responding a bit late, here.) Kirky… > [@](#): > > Spoofe, you don’t know me, so how can you say if I’m an asshole or not? Your behavior in this thread (and others) shows that, even if you’re not an asshole in real life, you sure have a spark of assholicness that roars to a raging inferno at the slightest spark. The problem is that you demand tolerance on the one hand, and then go and refuse to give tolerance to others, at the same time. What do we call someone who does that? > [@](#): > > But from my perspective, you’re a fucking bastard who doesn’t seem to care that gay teens die when silence is the rule of the realm. Why? Because I’m not screaming maniacally at the top of my lungs about the plight of gay teens? I care just as much as you do, buckaroo… I care about _teens in general_. I don’t just focus my attention on homosexuals - poor though their position in life may unjustly be. I recognize that by foaming at the mouth, the way you do, I’d cause far more damage to the plight of homosexuals than any demonination of Christianity ever could. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/484 "2002-11-29T02:21:54Z")
Does anyone else feel that perhaps this might have the opposite effect intended? That maybe, just maybe, it could potentially make things worse? Like give kids more ammunition? (I do think, though, that when I was eleven, if we had seen this, we would have done nothing but sit there and giggle like idiots the whole time. Hehehehe…GAY!!! Ehehehe! He said GAY!!! Oh, then he said SEXUAL!!! Hell, we couldn’t even see the word “Virgin” in our hymnals during Tuesday Masses without getting a serious case of the giggles.) ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/485 "2002-11-29T04:50:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Does anyone else feel that perhaps this might have the opposite effect intended? That maybe, just maybe, it could potentially make things worse? > > Like give kids more ammunition?\*\* That was my first thought when reading that the pamphlet handed out was called ‘Queer Voice.’ (Disclaimer: I’m a parent of young children who go to public school, though not middle school yet.) First, the push toward tolerance and acceptance of gays and lesbians and then, handing out a pamplet which uses a term that I’m going to outlaw in my house if I ever hear it spoken. In one presentation. I wouldn’t appreciate, one bit, something with ‘queer’ written on it coming home in their backpacks in sixth grade, while I’m (successfully I think) teaching my kids that those who seem ‘different’ really aren’t any different. Am I supposed to be liking or disliking that word? That’s a lot of after-school discussion fodder for one day, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/486 "2002-11-29T04:54:09Z")
Hmmm, that’s another thing. Yeah, how do you tell them then, not to say “queer”? (Ehehehe…it says ‘queer’…eheheh!!!) ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/487 "2002-11-29T05:15:45Z")
[Here’s what my state (Michigan) has to say:](http://michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-380-10&highlight=Act%20451) > [@](#): > > THE REVISED SCHOOL CODE (EXCERPT) > Act 451 of 1976 > > 380.10 Rights of parents and legal guardians; duties of public schools. > Sec. 10. > > **It is the natural, fundamental right of parents and legal guardians to determine and direct the care, teaching, and education of their children. The public schools of this state serve the needs of the pupils by cooperating with the pupil’s parents and legal guardians to develop the pupil’s intellectual capabilities and vocational skills in a safe and positive environment.** Somehow, I think that’s not going to shut up the Diogenes and MrVisibles of the world. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/488 "2002-11-29T05:38:56Z")
Not so long as gay kids aren’t provided with anything remotely like a “safe and positive environment” it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/489 "2002-11-29T05:57:43Z")
Guin: well, I dislike that word intensely, and an online friend of mine uses it all the time, she’s bisexual…debated with myself one day, “should I tell her how much it bothers me?” Then I thought, “no, because that’s too freaking weird.” I also think explaining to a child that ‘being gay is ok’ is a job of parents as well as teachers, particularly if it’s _your own_ child…I’m sorry that so many go balls-up on it. That is a tragedy. The proposed solution though, of circumventing parental approval of public school inititatives is offensive to me on several levels: becoming a parent didn’t make me a complete dipshit, and the schools depend on parental involvement for many, many things, it makes no sense to beg for time and effort in these and then slam the door when it comes to the actual _teaching_. I think they strike a nice balance between what parents/teachers/school board wants in terms of curriculum and initiatives. Well, some parents are teachers too, and some parents are gay; some people may be all three! This might be unthinkable in Fundyville TX, but (and for good reason) I don’t live there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/490 "2002-11-29T06:52:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The public schools of this state serve the needs of the pupils by cooperating with the pupil’s parents and legal guardians to develop the pupil’s **intellectual capabilities** and **vocational skills** in a **safe and positive environment** Teaching basic civil rights is a requisite part of developing **intellectual capabilities.** Teaching that bigotry will not be tolerated in a an academic or work setting is essential for developing their **vocational skills.** A **safe and positive environment** cannot be created without demanding respect for all students. Parents have no more right to interfere with these things than they do to interfere with math or chemistry. > [@](#): > > Somehow, I think that’s not going to shut up the Diogenes and MrVisibles of the world. You’ve cited nothing to contradict us. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/491 "2002-11-29T13:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > Parents have no more right to interfere with these things …_\* Interesting that you deliberately chose the perjorative term “interfere” to describe parental involvement…(or even parental notification) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/492 "2002-11-29T15:15:39Z")
‘The boy scouts do it,’ seems to be a [tenuous argument:](http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/May/11/ln/ln01a.html) > [@](#): > > The Department of Education has placed restrictions on a popular Boy Scouts program in public schools after two groups complained about the Scout Oath’s reference to God, as well as the organization’s anti-gay policy. > > Although Boy Scouts activities during school hours will be curtailed, the organization will be allowed to continue its Learning for Life program. The Aloha Council of the Boy Scouts of America has conducted the program in about 50 public schools for more than 25 years. The Boy Scouts are getting chased OUT of the classroom - letting Wingspan back in would just lend them cover. Even the craven [Boy Scouts Act of 2001](http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/proprule/2002-4/111502a.html), which forces schools to take our favorite anti gay & athiest group can only insist on before or after hours. If you then say, OK, what about if Wingspan just wanted to appear in the schools outside of the classroom? Here the existing code agrees with **gobear** ; [Massachusets:](http://www.doe.mass.edu/lawsregs/advisory/boyscouts.html) > [@](#): > > A school committee (or the board of trustees of a charter school) may adopt a policy that allows the Boy Scouts to post notices and distribute flyers in the school(s). As long as the public school does not “sponsor” the Boy Scouts or any other group that restricts membership, by endorsing the group or participating in the organization of its activities or recruitment of students, the school is not in violation of 603 C.M.R. 26.06(1). If the school committee permits certain types of outside groups (e.g., nonprofit charitable or civic groups that provide programs or services for young people) to distribute literature in the schools, it creates a “limited public forum.” No school committee is required to create a limited public forum. Once it does so, however, the school committee may not deny access to a qualified group on grounds that the group restricts membership based on sexual orientation or another protected category. The better solution would be to have a Gay Rights club as an extracurricular group. Less groundbreaking and offensive subversion of the parental rights, and IMHO, way more effective in nurturing gay students. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/493 "2002-11-29T16:00:18Z")
I was taught from early on – by parents, older siblings, relatives… just about everyone I had contact with – that homosexuality was just ‘wrong,’ morally repugnant and condemned by none other than “God” himself. Thus, all the discrimination and suffering gays went through was not only amply justified, but encouraged – after all, these are dangerous deviants out to “get you” and upend everything that is moral and right with the world. The Invasion of The Moral Mutants if you will. Thus armed, for quite a number of years, I took my homophobia to be just a natural ingredient of my own heterosexuality. As needed a component of what it takes to be a “man,” as providing for the family and wearing pants. Then, in my college years, it didn’t seem to be much of an issue for me anymore – I really couldn’t care less who slept with whom. Besides, I figured the more gays there were, the better the ratio of women available to me. Not exactly profound philosophical thinking, but then again, at that age, I didn’t always think with the right ‘head.’ But a step in the right direction anyway. Fast forward a few years. I met a really nice, intelligent, funny guy at a gym I worked out in, a guy that I struck an easy friendship with as we seemed to have much in common. Until, that is, over a couple of drinks, he confessed his ‘dark secret’ to me: he was gay! Hmmm…what to do? I mean, it was ‘OK’ to be tolerant of their lifestyle and I’d actually made some progress from my original justification for ‘gayness’ as written above; I was now at the point where I figured that just as some people are born with different colored skin, so are people that feel attracted to their own sex. So what? But being actual _friends_ with one? Why, what if the guy was attracted to me? After all, he had already casually mentioned that I was a 'good looking guy." How would I handle that? Could I? Moreover, even if I rejected his friendship, wouldn’t knowing that he was gay make me all jittery around him in the confines of the locker room and shower where our budding friendship started? What about the dangers of succumbing to some dark, hidden desire that I might have in me? That thought alone was enough to send waves of panic over me – how positively _embarrasing_. Because what follows would take much longer to write than I am willing, because I am now 46 years old at completely and totally at ease with myself, suffice it to say that I went on to have a great friendship with that gentleman for a number of years. That through him I learned more about this one topic than what I’d been told by all other people combined. I even thank him for letting me feel a little of that blind bigotry that had been a constant in his own life – you see, even though my sexual preferences never varied, just by proxy, by being _seen_ with him in any number of places around town (and gasp, I even went with him to a gay club – hey, hetero males _love_ lesbians, remember? 🙂 ) the rumors and innuendoes about _me_ got started. It was just startling to realize how people could treat you completely different based on something as trivial in the overall scheme of things, as what you choose to do with your genitals – and mind you, because the rumor fell on its face, I was never subject to 1/100th of what my friend, and likely most other gays, go though… Anyway, I guess this is just my very long-winded way of saying that I cannot possibly understand what _anyone_ would oppose any kind of program that teaches tolerance towards others. And I would hazard a guess that gays, despite their obvious advances in mainstream society, remain one – if not the one – of the most vilified minorities around. I for one, would have welcomed any number of lectures such as the one described in the OP in order to overcome all the empty prejudices that I was handicapped (yes, _handicapped_) with from the start. I am also making sure my 12 year old boy gets it right from the start. And that’s what this debate is ultimately about. Despite the seemingly sensible posts that many have written, this is an issue with no shades of gray. It is about overcoming centuries of myths and outright lies…and isn’t that what schools are supposed to be all about? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/494 "2002-11-29T16:10:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by beagledave_ > > Interesting that you deliberately chose the perjorative term “interfere” to describe parental involvement…(or even parental notification) I don’t mind if parents are notified–as long as they don’t interfere. **Ace** , the Boy Scouts are not really analogous here. Wingspan is not espousing any religious views. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/495 "2002-11-29T16:25:07Z")
**Diogenes** : They’re analogous in the sense that both groups advocate non-pedagogic viewpoints. Lacking a Straight Affirmation Society that would be more directly analogous, these groups are similar enough for our debate. Also, this analogy has already been made by Gobear back on page #3. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/496 "2002-11-29T16:40:50Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > \*\*Teaching that bigotry will not be tolerated in a an academic or work setting is essential for developing their vocational skills. A safe and positive environment cannot be created without demanding respect for all students. \*\* And, interestingly, there hasn’t been a single person in all 10 pages of this thread who disputes the above. Not one. Also interesting that both you and MrVisible chose to skip the overriding message of the Michigan School Code. I’ll try again: > [@](#): > > It is the natural, fundamental right of parents and legal guardians to determine and direct the care, teaching, and education of their children. All the rest of that passage discusses how schools will assist **parents** toward that aim. There is, however, no way to parse the above-cited sentence so that what the two of you have been saying ad nauseum is justifiable. Or legal, as this is the law of the land, where I’m from. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/497 "2002-11-29T17:11:10Z")
Interesting how you would choose that passage to be the overriding message. I see the overriding message to lie in the second sentence: > [@](#): > > The public schools of this state serve the needs of the pupils by cooperating with the pupil’s parents and legal guardians to develop the pupil’s intellectual capabilities and vocational skills in a safe and positive environment. You see, it doesn’t serve the needs of the pupils to deny them information on their sexuality, and then deride that sexuality constantly. Cooperation between the parents and the schools means just that; the education of a student is best achieved when both parties are involved. Unless you’re arguing that every single thing the school teaches its pupils needs to be run by the parents for confirmation first, you’d best give me a good reason why any discussion of homosexuality is so heinous as to be unavailable without parental permission. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/498 "2002-11-29T17:16:11Z")
And still, some of you fail to answer my question-what happens if it backfires? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/499 "2002-11-29T17:24:59Z")
**Guin** , how do you think it could make things worse? Specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853/500 "2002-11-29T17:30:42Z")
Well, at the very least, all that happens is the kids just start giggling and saying, “hehehehe…queer” a lot. Or maybe they use it to say, “Now we can tell who is GAY!” Or if some parents flip out, and start condemning things, or whatever. I’m just saying, what happens IF the kids start taking these pamphlets and saying, “Hey, I’ll bet YOU ARE GAY!!!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-forbid-we-teach-our-kids/138853.md?page=26)