God? (Got proof? Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more) [ed. title]

In the last thread, all I had said about surprisingness (or all I meant to say) was that if our beginning expectations give the same probability distribution as a fair coin, then all sequences of a given length would be equally surprising to us, at least with respect to just this. However, in the real world, as I’ve noted, I don’t think anyone’s expectations are anything like the probability distribution of a fair coin, in that, in the real world, we all find 1001 H much more likely than 1000 H + 1 T, and such things. (I equate, in my Bayesian way, the extent to which we believe something, the probability we assign to it, the level to which we find it plausible, etc.)

I agree that the second result causes a feeling of surprise, or something like it, which the first one doesn’t, and that there is a justification for this. However, before I get to that, let me note that I actually think we view the second result as more likely than the first; after all, we think there is a possibility that a coin has been tampered with or is special in some way, that a special coin is more likely to be inclined towards the second result than towards the first, and that nonspecial coins are equally likely to go either way.

Now, then, as for the fact that we somehow, nevertheless, experience a feeling like surprise with the second one which we do not with the first, I think this is because the second one causes a sharp belief revision in a way which the first one does not. Upon viewing the second one, we find ourself switching over from a low probability to a high probability of the coin having some sort of weight upon it, or being magnetically controlled, or having heads on both sides, or simply being causally ordained by pure will of God to come up heads now and forevermore, or at least now and most of the time forevermore… We will also, as a result, find ourself switching to a very high probability of the next flips being heads. This updating of our beliefs/plausibility ratings is justified by the fact that our prior probability distribution/plausibility ratings, before viewing the data, was in fact not a uniform distribution, it was skewed in all the right ways to allow us to make these sorts of inductive leaps. Whereas, with the first sequence above, no drastic belief revision of the above sort happens; certainly, it is conceivable that a coin could be rigged in more complicated a manner as to come up in this fashion, but we consider such a rigging so implausible as to make the effect of viewing the first sequence almost negligible, in terms of revision of distant beliefs. [Of course, there are some beliefs which the first one causes us to revise too; it makes us go from thinking “It very likely won’t be HTHHTHHTHT” to thinking “It definitely was HTHHTHHTHT”, but that sort of thing doesn’t stir any feelings in us; feelings are stirred when evidence causes us to revise beliefs which are a little further out and of more importance or use to us in deriving new conclusions].

I agree that what’s unlikely, and what causes our feelings to stir, is a “meaningful” result coming up, such as would trigger us to begin carrying out inductive inferences. However, even though we find P(Something “meaningful” happens) to be much less than P(Nothing “meaningful” happens), I actually think, for our reasoning to work, it must also be the case that we find particular meaningful sequences rather more likely than particular nonmeaningful sequences, as I explained above.

Wow–again, I think I agree with all of that. I’m really enjoying this discussion with you, Indistinguishable!

Daniel

If I may nitpick, the data win.

(I’m glad you are as impressed with Indistinguishable as I am. I’m proud to have been the first to spot him. His contributions to a discussion on the MOP were incredibly insightful and helpful.)

And that would be the Flying Spaghetti Monster, right?

Sorry; my brief research into the matter unearthed no claims that communism was a scientifically-derived philosophy. Its pronounced anti-atheist slant, however, was easy to notice. So, I made a connection I perhaps shouldn’t have, in trying to extrapolate why you were referencing communism at all.

We can show that fascist Communism, and all its ills, are not derived from science, by noting that they do not follow in a scientific way from any scientific theiries or principles. (Whether pure Marxism is scientific is debatable; the unscientificocity of Communism and its actions is not.)

However, when we analize whether the inquisition was derived from religion, we note that it does follow in a religious way from religious theories and principles. I don’t see any reason to think that the Catholic church was not a religion at the time that it was sponsoring the Inquisition, and the church was acting directly based on its religious foundation in oppressing heresy. I see no argument here for their actions being a ‘perversion’ of religion. And no, the fact you have a different religious interpretation of things doesn’t make every other interpretation ‘perverted’.

The thing about science is, see, it by definition doesn’t support theories that have been demonstrated in a practical matter to be crap. So, if the theory has been shown to be crap, then it’s not science. Religion is not so strict in its admission requirements; things can be crap and yet still be religion. Not perversions of religion, just religion. This difference is why rejecting pseudoscience is not a No True Scotsman argument, but screening out religions and religious effects you don’t like always is.

Therein lies the “no true scotsman” (may I say “NTS”?) problem - “Marxism” = scientific; Communism = unscientific. Why? Because Communists did bad stuff, and no true Marxist would have done bad stuff …

But did they? One may equally argue that a host of influences led to the Inquisition - from a more or less racial notion of “purity of blood”, a desire by the Crown to retain control of the multitude of religious organizations in Spain by means of terror, through to a desire to obtain revenue; the actual religious basis for the Inquisition was rather thin; and it certainly had little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

One may make a very plausable argument that the Inquisition was a basically cynical exploitation by the Crown of terrorism for its own ends, with only the thinnest of religious justifications.

Science has very little to say about the application of its theories. Where “science” comes up with biological or socio-cultural theories concerning the activities of humans, the application of these theories may (and historically has) lead to “crap” results. Examples abound. Marxism off the bat, as a “scientific” theory of history; anthropology generally, as a source of “scientific” theories of human behaviour - lead to eugenics and scientific racism.

The fact that the application of scientific theories to governance has lead to bad (or “crap”) results does not render these theories non-science. Science is only concerned with whether the theories are objectively correct, not whether the application of those theories by others in governance leads to bad results. One may well argue that these theories have been distorted or misunderstood, or better, that any application of some strictly scientific theory to how humans should be governed is not, in and of itself, scientific; but then, much the same can be said about religion - its human application as a means of social control of other humans is of necessity flawed.

What is of great interest is not arguing ‘which is better governance technique for human happiness - science or religion?’ It is in noticing that people who attempt to govern by any allegedly infallible method whether it be based of alleged “science” or alleged “religion” invariably end up using the same techniques of control - the gulag and the inquisition.

Nah, I deliberately use data in the singular form, as I see this as a salubrious change in the language. I will be happy to say Data vincent if we switch to Latin, though :).

Daniel

I just can’t keep up with you young’uns and your slang. :wink:

Aw, shucks. Thanks. I think I need a bashful smiley…

No, as far as I know we dismiss the acts of fascist “Communist” governments as being scientific because 1) Marxism isn’t science (at best it’s one dude’s unsubstantiated speculation; come on, he didn’t even collect survey data), and 2) the facist communists didn’t even adhere to the tenants of Marxism to any realistic degree. The second factor is more important to this case; Communists historically haven’t often been Marxists. It’s kind of like how if somebody isn’t from Scotland, has never been to Scotland, and the same can be said for all of his ancestors back to the genesis of life, then it’s not a fallacy to say he’s not a true Scotsman. Even if he claims he is one.

It perpetually amazes me me how anyone can say that the Spanish Inquisition isn’t related to or caused by religion.

And to judge the Catholic church by your version of religion is to move the goalpost, inherently. It doesn’t matter one whit what you think about Jesus; it’s what they thought about their religion that determines whether they were acting in accordance with their beliefs, or perverting their beliefs to justify their acts.

(And as far as I can tell, the practice of slaughtering people who are not practicing your religion is generously supported by the bible. It’s pretty much one of the major themes of the old testament.)

Adhering to any policy that has been demonstrated not to be correct is unscientific.

And this is the first I’ve ever heard that the governance of humans was outside the scope of religion. I image it’ll be rather a shock to God to hear that, no, he doesn’t have a right to perform any judgements over mankind or the sins thereof. For if you deny that right in his priests, you deny that right in him.
. . .And I’ve always thought that the term “the data” was often used to refer to a collection of data as a single mass object, like “humanity” refers to the collection of humans as a singular object.

A human eats, humans eat, humanity eats.

A datum wins, data win, the data wins.

I like english; it sucks! :smiley: