Not at all. One can convert from one religion to another.
The fundamental unanswered question of cosmology is, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” But “God” is no answer to that question. If God exists, God is something. Why does God exist rather than not existing?
Because God’s existence is necessary; i.e, God cannot not exist.
Let me reiterate the effin’ OP: Got Proof?
Pandora, NOOOOOOO!
I think we are safe. Didn’t Lib say that he would stop trying to prove the existance of god on the off chance that he might succeed and thereby deprive the world of the beauty of faith?
I, like almost all spiritual people, am well aware of the alternative explanations for my experiences. I have read a considerable amount on the topic from all perspectives. I’ve considered my own experiences carefully, and I’ve compared them with others who had similar experiences. I have two basic options: that these experiences are real, or that they are creations of the psyche. The first explanation is the one I find more convincing.
I do not accept the creations of the psyche as a blanket explanation for everything that humans experience beyond what some people choose to believe in. Dreams occur during certain sleep cycles. While we may have a few minutes of confusion right when we wake up, we can distinguish dreams from reality by analysis. Hallucinations occur under certain circumstances; they likewise can be analyzed and understood.
But what I find particularly unconvincing about the dismissal of spiritual experiences is that the dismissers are constantly changing their explanation to meet their needs. As in this thread, we started out with the story that spiritual experience is always merely a projection of what a person wants to believe. Then I pointed out that it’s frequently the opposite. Then we got a revised story in which the psyche projects what a person wants to believe, except that sometimes it projects exactly what a person doesn’t want to believe. If we plumbed the nature of spiritual experience further, I’d bet we’d eventually need a revised revised story, and then a revised, revised, revised story, and so forth. In short, those who are determined to not believe in the spiritual realm simply stretch their list of the amazing illusions of the psyche to encompass whatever happens to other people.
In short, I refuse to abandon my own experiences and the experiences of many others, including many intelligent, educated, rational, observant people, on the grounds that our psyches are making it all up. We are human beings and capable of observing the world around us and remembering, understanding, and analyzing our experiences. We are capable, with sufficient practice, of knowing when we are being deceived and when we are encountering the true reality. It does not become less true just because some other people don’t share it, just as music doesn’t cease to exist just because some people are deaf.
And then, overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
But… you still won’t tell us what those things are and what they felt like so that we can judge for ourselves, hunh?
I thought we had covered that. The ontological argument is bullshit.
Which, of course, is why there are people who have been raised atheist who have later come to accept theistic beliefs.
People on either side of this issue who believe that it is simply a matter of logic or common sense or some significant act of rationality to choose to belive or fail to believe are simply operating from their own solipsitic position. It may indicate how the poster came to view belief, but it is not extendable to humanity, as a whole.
When some poster wanders by to insist that god is a clearly obvious reality, I often wonder whether they have reflected on the views that led them to that belief. However, I wonder exactly the same thing when someone wanders by to make the diametrically opposite claim. Belief or a lack of belief is going to be driven by one’s life experiences, matched against what one has been told about to possibility of the divine or its lack, with a choice based on which view resonates best when one’s experiences are compared to one’s information.
To claim that one belief or the other is the only possible (or only likely) belief simply indicates that the speaker does not really understand the process.
False dilemma. Another option is ‘the experiences were real, my interpretation of them is false’. Take the ‘spiritual motes’ that people are always claiming to have captured on film. They show pictures with circular shapes on them, floating in the air, and say that those circles weren’t there when the picture was taken, so they have to be spirits. Then it was shown that dust particles, insects, any little tiny thing that can catch light can cause a digital camera to show them in the picture. The experience was real (seeing the motes), it was not a creation of the psyche, but they were still wrong in their interpretation.
That’s fine. Just be prepared to give actual evidence as to why you think there’s another reason for the event.
Project much? Your object was answered, and you never said anything about it after that. The explanation wasn’t revised, it was added to. You never gave us any specifics, and so we just threw out the most common explanations. Any of them could be right, or none of them could be. If we have evidence of psychological phenomenon that fits the events, then there is no reason to leap for the supernatural. You won’t give us any actual evidence, so I am forced to conclude that that it is your interpretation that is at fault.
Heh. Bet you a dollar?
I can’t believe it, but I completely agree with you, great post in my opinion.
Oh my, what is an “order effect”? Not in my vocabulary.
As the Universe tends to chaos, is that the reason for precise orbits of our system, and the cooperation between all the elements that keep your body going and the planet able to sustain life. I don’t see any randomness in the Universe or the entire creation. Randomness or chaos if it existed anywhere would quickly wipe out everything. That is the nature of chaos, it destroys the order of everything it comes in contact with. Order is achieved only on purpose with knowledge and intelligence. The people who believe in Intelligent Design are right. One has only to look in the mirror to find the Creator.
I can believe I’m agreeing with Tom–I just can’t believe I’m agreeing with lekatt! 
Daniel
Inasmuch as the mirror projects an illusion of a being where no being really stands, and that illusion is based entirely on the nature of the viewer, I agree.
Daniel
hmm… lekatt, just in case you were taking extra time working on your explanation for why you posted a cite that says the exact opposite of what you were saying, here is what you have been saying about Reynolds up till now, just as a reference:
(emphasis added)
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4870614&highlight=hours#post4870614
http://home.comcast.net/~neardeath/nde/001_pages/25.html
The life changes caused by a NDE are different and more profound than what you are talking about. They also last a lifetime.
How long for? Consciousness? Eternity!
In my case when I went from extremely religious to not religious at all ,I believe I have been very familiar with religous training and dogma. My experiences as a youth from deep belief to rejection arose from mild questioning to much reading. While originally I rejected religion for myself only, I was eventually lead to reject them all. There was a time when I thought religion was a personal experience. Its heavy entrance in politics and justification of war makes me more strident. I now believe it is dangerous .