# God heals? Question FROM a Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298 "2011-04-21T23:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/81 "2011-04-27T11:37:40Z")
> [@CJE-MO](#): > > I’ll try to give you a biblical answer, since nothing I’ve read seems to have given any hope at all. > > I will begin by clearly stating I am a believer and as such I believe the Bible. If you don’t believe the Bible is God’s Word, then this post will mean absolutely nothing. > > Now, on to the answer. The biggest problem with almost everything that has been stated here is everyone is beginning upon a wrong premise, that being “if God exists, then He can do anything He wants.” This wrong premise is one of the biggest hinderances to people understanding “why does God allow bad things to happen.” > > The problem is people are confusing God’s ability with His authority. God has the ability to do anything, He does not, however, have the right or authority to anything. > > If you study the Bible, you will find one of the most unique characteristics about man, compared to any other creature, is that he has a free will, including the right to go against God’s will. In the Garden of Eden, God gave man authority it the earth (Gen. 1:26) with only one stipulation "don’t eat of a certain tree. It was man’s free will that disobeyed that command and listened to the devil. In doing so, man gave his authority in the earth to the one he obeyed (Rom. 6:16). > > With man choosing to obey the devil over God’s command, now the devil has certain legal rights in the earth. Not only that, but now there is a curse in this earth. Not because God allowed the curse in the earth, but because man used free will to obey the devil. > > Because of this, God cannot just do anything He wants to do. God is a just and righteous God, if He gives authority to man to over the earth, then if man chooses to give that authority over to the devil, God can’t rightfully stop man from doing it. > > Why do bad things happen? Bad things happen because this earth is cursed. Why doesn’t God stop bad things from happening? Because without man using his free will to agree with God, He is limited in what He can do. > > The whole point is, God is limited in what He can do in the earth without man’s agreement. That is the whole idea of faith. Faith is man using his free will to agree with God’s plan. Faith (believing God’s Word) is the connecting of man’s free will with what God desires to do on the earth. Faith is what gives God the authority to use His power. > > Clearest example I know of in the bible is found in Mark 9:14-23. A man brings his son to Jesus and asks, “If you can do anything… help us.” Look at Jesus’ reply (verse 23). He said to the man, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.” Basically, Jesus was saying, “It’s not about my ability, it’s a matter of what I am able to do. I need you to believe.” The man believed and Jesus healed him. > > To sum it all up, if you believe the bible, then you’ll see that bad things happen not because God is testing you or because it’s part of His plan, but because the world is cursed and there is an enemy that does these things. However, if you will believe what God has said in His Word, you give Him a right to use His power to keep you out of these things and deliver if they come on you (like the healing of cancer). It is absolutely God’s will to heal your friend, but she has to believe God. And sometimes, others can believe for them as well. However, you’ve already stated what you believe, “I’ll be straight up and bet money that she dies” that means you aren’t going to be any help to her at all. (Please, whatever you do, don’t talk like this in front of her. It will rob her of her ability to believe). But if she will believe, she can be healed. If she doesn’t believe God will heal her, then she may die. It will be tragic, but even in that, she will be in heaven. > > Obviously, this is a whole study that goes through the entire Bible, but I’ve tried to give you the basics in as short an answer as possible. Only other thing I can say is don’t blame God when bad things happen, and don’t let people (even Christians that don’t know any better) tell you God is the one that gave her cancer or that He doesn’t care and is indifferent. If you study the Bible, it’s simply not true. He wants to heal and help, but people have to believe. God is at fault. he made humans with flaws, he knew they would sin, just as he should have know Satan would rebel. The punishment for sin was death and that is the reason people die according to the Bible. Free will does not mean if you do your will and not God’s you are punished, If a human father tell it’s child," you will to go to the movies, I don’t want you to go , so if you go I will kill you" is not free will!!! It is my way or the highway! And there is no way to know what God wills. All any human knows is what some other human said God said, so belief is not in God, but in another human. There is nothing written said, taught or thought that is not of human origin. That is a proven fact! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/82 "2011-04-27T11:49:58Z")
> [@CJE-MO](#): > > Sorry if this ends up being posted twice, I hit post but it did not show up and I’ve waited and refreshed my browser a number of times. > > Though I think forums are obviously not the best place for “theological” discussions, I will do my best to answer a few of the questions that arose from my post since the posters seem to genuinely desire my opinion and are not just attacking my beliefs, thank you for that. > > Diogenes, here is what I believe the bible teaches concerning your questions. > > 1. Does the Devil have free will? I apologize for this, I should not have implied that only humans have a free will, which my post does imply. Obviously, the devil had a free will to rebel against God in the first place. Because a thorough explanation would take a long time, I probably shouldn’t have brought up the “uniqueness” of man’s free will. I incorrectly stated that man was unique in having a free will, what I meant to get across was his free will is unique. Hopefully, I can be a little clearer by saying the devil does have a free will, but his authority in the earth is also limited, just like God’s. The devil was given a measure of authority when Adam sinned, but man still retained the ability to choose God’s way, so what happens in a person’s life is still up to man’s free will which I will explain further in the next question. > > 1. People who get cancer have given authority to the Devil? No. Adam gave a measure of authority to the devil when he sinned. Specifically, it allowed the devil to work in the lives of man and it opened the door for the curse to come on the earth (sickness, poverty, natural disasters, and pretty much everything we call “evil” is a part of the curse). If Adam had never sinned, these things would never have existed. Now the curse is in the earth, and is a part of the earth. The possibility for sickness is in the earth. Good or bad, young or old, Christians and atheists all get sick and can often die from that sickness. That is the work of the curse. Now the curse is functioning whether we want it to or not, but there is a way to “overcome” the curse. The best way I can explain it is through the laws of gravity and the laws of lift. Gravity functions on the earth and affects everyone. Doesn’t matter who you are. That is what the curse does. However, any person can get in an airplane and, if they apply the right laws, can overcome gravity. Doesn’t mean gravity isn’t there, gravity is just being superceded by another law. That is what faith does. Now just like gravity, if you don’t do anything about the curse it will function. It takes actively believing the Bible to overcome the curse. It’s not enough to believe in God, you have to actively believe what He has said in the Bible and apply it to your life. Just like knowing about lift does not stop gravity from keeping you on the ground, you have to actively do something about it. > > 2. What does free will have to do with natural “evils” like tsunamis or earthquakes? See above. natural disasters are apart of the curse and they are in the earth whether we like it or not. > > 3. Why is free will is so important (and I will ignore the fact that fre will is a logically incohernt and impossible concept in the first place)? Not sure why free will is an “impossible concept” but the importance of free will in the context of my post is that Adam had a free will and he chose to obey the devil and disobey God. That brought the curse on the earth and that is why people get sick. But, free will also gives us the ability to believe the Bible, which can allow us to overcome the curse. To answer one of the questions in your later post, I’ve had loved ones who have died of cancer and they loved God with all their heart, but they didn’t know how to believe the Bible to be healed. The bible says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” To continue my illustration, my loved one “didn’t get in the plane and apply the right principles.” > > 4. If I’m reading your question right, you’re asking why God gave man free will in the first place? God’s entire plan for man was to have people He could pour His love out to. Now, this will probably raise a lot of questions, but for love to be full and fulfill it’s purpose it has to be understood and received. I can have affection for my dog, but it doesn’t understand my affection and really cannot be what I consider true love. It’s purpose is not brought to fulfillment. At the same time, someone could be a stalker and have very strong feelings for another, but that love is not received and therefore is not brought to fulfillment. Angels could not fulfill God’s desire to love, because they are far inferior to God, they could not “understand” God’s love. But the Bible teaches that God made man in His image, giving them the ability to do just that. Also, free will was necessary for God’s love to be brought to fulfillment in the lives of people because they had to be able to receive or reject His love. But with that came the ability to reject God and for all the bad things that have happened on this earth. We could argue if this is “right” of God to do all day, but I believe that is what a thorough study of the Bible bears out. > > 1. Why doesn’t God bother to prove his own existence? Granted I don’t know why God doesn’t except the bible teaches you have to have faith He exists. I do wonder, what in your mind would constitute Him proving Himself. If He shook the earth, people would believe it was a mass earthquake. If He showed up in the sky, you can’t tell me people wouldn’t attribute it to mass hysteria and hallucination. In fact, I personally can’t think of any way that God could prove He existed that people wouldn’t somehow explain away. But when you first choose to believe God by faith, then from my own experience He proves Himself to you daily in the most simple yet profound ways. > > Alan, concerning your question about God’s authority, the bible teaches that God is absolutely just. It is His nature and character to be absolutely just as it is in His character to be love. I don’t believe it has to do with rules, legalism, boundaries or any such thing. I believe it has to do with His character. Theology tries to answer what is right and what is wrong, but to God it just is one or the other. There is no outside “force” enforcing rules on God, but His character demands justness. If God gives authority to man, then it would simply be unjust for Him to step in the and take it away the second man did something He didn’t like (which is what Adam did when He obeyed the devil). Authority was given to man as a genuine gift. If I were to give you a gift, it wouldn’t be genuine if I said, “Here this is yours, but you can only do this, this and that with it.” If I have truly given it to you then it is yours to do with as you please. And if I truly gave something to you, it would be unjust for me to step in if you did something I didn’t like. Absolute justness is God’s nature and character, so much so that it even His great love for people will not override it. > > That, to the best of my ability, is what I believe the Bible teaches concerning those questions. Obviously, I may have missed some things but I did my best. Thanks again for seeming to genuinely want to know my opinion and not attacking my beliefs. Your speaking of God’s great love for people doesn’t add up! On one hand he is said to give free will, to me that would be like a human father giving a small child a gun or knife and then if they kill someone,because they don’t know how to use it, or what it is for, he punishes them for it, when the father knew ahead of time that is how the child would use it. This same God is supposed to have just told a few people what he wants done but they distort this, and then he blames the people who don’t know? Wasn’t the first sin eating of the tree of knowlege and because now they knew the difference between good and evil they had to die? God wanted them to stay ignorant rather that teaching them right from wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/83 "2011-04-27T15:30:24Z")
[www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com](http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/84 "2011-04-27T18:02:29Z")
> [@CJE-MO](#): > > To sum it all up, if you believe the bible, then you’ll see that bad things happen not because God is testing you or because it’s part of His plan, but because the world is cursed and there is an enemy that does these things. However, if you will believe what God has said in His Word, you give Him a right to use His power to keep you out of these things and deliver if they come on you (like the healing of cancer). It is absolutely God’s will to heal your friend, but she has to believe God. And sometimes, others can believe for them as well. However, you’ve already stated what you believe, “I’ll be straight up and bet money that she dies” that means you aren’t going to be any help to her at all. (Please, whatever you do, don’t talk like this in front of her. It will rob her of her ability to believe). But if she will believe, she can be healed. If she doesn’t believe God will heal her, then she may die. My mother and two of her sisters were all God-fearing, Jesus-believing, “saved” women who believed that the God was sovereign, that Jesus had died for their sins, and that it was incumbent on everyone to accept Christ into their hearts, which they all had. They all believed in miraculous healing. Two of them died long, protracted, torturous deaths from cancer. The other one died a relatively quick but nonetheless torturous death from cancer. My son died from a congenital heart defect. He believed in God. His mother and grandparents and big sister and aunts & uncles all believed in God and prayed for his healing. He didn’t make it to puberty. The only comfort the notion of God gives me in such circumstances is that there isn’t one: that there is no omniscient, omnipotent being who created the universe and watches uncaring or, worse, enjoying, as humanity suffers. If your God was willing to let my mother and son and aunts die in agony because they didn’t believe, fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/85 "2011-04-27T18:09:10Z")
Sorry to hear about your friend, but when there no other alternatives left many people grasp for the supernatural. Believing that God would/could/can heal is the same as believing God sends the killer storms and floods to the Bible Belt for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/86 "2011-04-27T18:19:35Z")
Maybe god doesn’t like ass kissers. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/87 "2011-04-27T20:23:45Z")
We are programmed to see ourselves–the human race–as being a special twinkle in God’s eye, so when nature happens in a way that we find displeasing, we’re scrambling to find an explanation. But animals experience the same diseases and tragedies that we do. What’s the higher meaning when a random bear in the woods suffers from idiopathic renal failure? When an elephant is born with crippling limb deformities? When a wildebeast is brutually killed by a lion? If there is no higher meaning to animal events, we shouldn’t be searching for higher meaning to human ones. Are we are not animals too? ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/88 "2011-04-28T14:03:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 1. Does the Devil have free will? If only humans have free will, then the Devil’s will is God’s will because the Devil can’t choose otherwise. The Devil has free will. And one point of those stories is that being created perfect isn’t enough to keep you perfect when you have the free will to choose something else. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 1. If free will is really so important, then why doesn’t God only create people who will freely choose good? For an omimax God, all evil is God’s own choice. There is no way out of that, including blaming a “Devil” which God created himself with full knowledge of what that devil would do, and to whom he did not give free will. If only humans have fre will, then the Devil’s will is God’s will. Well, that isn’t free will is it? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 1. Why is free will is so important (and I will ignore the fact that fre will is a logically incohernt and impossible concept in the first place)? You were in that [free will](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600471&page=5) thread with me. And from what I saw, your “turtles all the way down,” belief wasn’t supported even by people who didn’t believe in free will. Here’s what I ended that thread with… (on quantum effects and possibility of free will.) > [@Does free will exist?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-free-will-exist/574464/214): > > We don’t know what causes that collapse; or why one particle decays today and another with the identical wave function decays 5 million years from now, etc. What is to say that your will isn’t capable of preventing one collapse and bringing on another? And that’s why I still say quantum mechanics allows for free will. > > Your mind can control itself. Not only that, but it can determine to control itself. Someone with a habit that largely determines their behavior, (something they find hard to do or not to do,) can decide this is a “bad” habit they don’t want to give in to anymore. And with work, hard work of retraining their brain themselves, change that habit. It happens. Your mind can control itself. It’s also true that people tend not to take the hard steps of retraining their brain when they don’t believe in free will. (as already cited.) > > So, when you don’t believe in free will, you don’t tend to control your own mind. You let it do what it feels like doing. > When you do believe in free will, you’re more likely to control your mind and change what you let it feel like doing. > > I conclude from that: If you don’t believe in free will you probably don’t have it and see no evidence for it. If you believe in it, it’s possible to have it, and you’ll see evidence for it. Seeing the same evidence of someone changing a habit, the non-believer says, “random coin flip;” the believer says, “my mind changed itself, and I determined that it would do that. I saw the possible outcomes for the coin and determined which one would happen.” (i.e. it’s not turtles all the way down as one non-believer put it.) Free will is specifically exercised when you go against your nature; when you change what it is you want to do. > > Free will is still a very useful concept and it’s better for society if people believe it. > I think it’s irresponsible to preach otherwise. It promotes bad behavior to say free will doesn’t exist. And it’s the forseeable consequence. It’s obvious that if you tell people they don’t control what they want to do, they will choose not to try to control what they want to do. It entirely forseeable that they will continue in bad behavior; that they will start new bad behaviors because they are convienent and easy. “I have this feeling to do something convenient for me. Sure it will hurt others, but I have no control over my will, so their is no point in trying to control my will; there is no point in trying to do something else. I fell like doing this; I’ll just do it. I’m just a passenger anyway.” The point is that “Free Will” isn’t if you don’t get to choose. (i.e. “then why doesn’t God only create people who will freely choose good?” is ridiculous.) And perfection isn’t enough when free choice is involved. So, you need to build people who will choose good even when it’s a difficult choice… Here’s how I come to that conclusion, but it involves some perfectly reasonable assumptions that others reject 1. Free Will. already discussed in another thread, and it’s not strictly necessary. 2. A creator God would come from his own fully formed reality, and not just a closet attached to a remote corner of ours, (as one athiest once tried to claim was “just as likely.”) 3. There would be something for us to do in that fully formed reality \*other \*than staring at God’s glory and praising him for all eternity. Not that that won’t happen, but it isn’t the \*only \*thing to do. And that’s why he wants people with free will, and not just automatons to constantly praise him, in some sort of, (as I put it in another thread,) mastabatory praise machine. from that I conclude that suffering is necessary to produce people who will always choose good, unlike the previous example of a perfect being who chose evil. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/89 "2011-04-28T14:08:44Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > The Devil has free will. And one point of those stories is that being created perfect isn’t enough to keep you perfect when you have the free will to choose something else. What does the word _perfect_ mean in the above quote? I’m not being a smartass here; the word doesn’t have to mean _flawless_. But I can’t engage you without being sure of the definition you have in mind, and the most common meaning of perfect makes the above nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/90 "2011-04-28T14:32:30Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > The Devil has free will. But **CJE-MO** (the person to whom I addressed that question) said that free will is unique to humans. If angels have free will, and can live in Heaven right from the moment of their creation, then why can’t people? > [@](#): > > And one point of those stories is that being created perfect isn’t enough to keep you perfect when you have the free will to choose something else. What does “perfect” mean? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If free will is really so important, then why doesn’t God only create people who will freely choose good? For an omimax God, all evil is God’s own choice. There is no way out of that, including blaming a “Devil” which God created himself with full knowledge of what that devil would do, and to whom he did not give free will. If only humans have fre will, then the Devil’s will is God’s will. > [@](#): > > Well, that isn’t free will is it? Only God’s. People can only do what God intends them to do. It’s impossible to do anything against God’s will. > [@](#): > > The point is that “Free Will” isn’t if you don’t get to choose. (i.e. “then why doesn’t God only create people who will freely choose good?” is ridiculous.) There is no contradiction here. God has the ability to create only people who will FREELY choose good. He doesn’t have to limit their ability to choose, justy use his omnipotence to only create those he knows upfront will only choose good. > [@](#): > > And perfection isn’t enough when free choice is involved. What does “perfection” mean, and how does creating only people who will freely choose good a limit on free choice? > [@](#): > > So, you need to build people who will choose good even when it’s a difficult choice… Here’s how I come to that conclusion, but it involves some perfectly reasonable assumptions that others reject > > 1. Free Will. already discussed in another thread, and it’s not strictly necessary. > 2. A creator God would come from his own fully formed reality, and not just a closet attached to a remote corner of ours, (as one athiest once tried to claim was “just as likely.”) > 3. There would be something for us to do in that fully formed reality \*other \*than staring at God’s glory and praising him for all eternity. Not that that won’t happen, but it isn’t the \*only \*thing to do. And that’s why he wants people with free will, and not just automatons to constantly praise him, in some sort of, (as I put it in another thread,) mastabatory praise machine. But you say that angels already have free will, and they don’t have to put up with God’s bullshit test to get into Heaven, so what was the point of creating humans? > [@](#): > > from that I conclude that suffering is necessary to produce people who will always choose good This makes no sense whatsoever. Angels always choose good, do they not? And God knows ahead of time which people will choose good and which people won’t, so what forces him to create people who won’t? > [@](#): > > unlike the previous example of a perfect being who chose evil. What does “perfect” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/91 "2011-04-28T16:39:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes no sense whatsoever. Angels always choose good, do they not? And God knows ahead of time which people will choose good and which people won’t, so what forces him to create people who won’t? I’m an atheist, as you know, but I find Augustine’s answer to this hard to argue with. He argues that existence is a good thing; it is a good thing that God has created us. God _did_ create a world of beings who always choose the good: it’s called heaven, and those beings angels. If God had decided to create only that world, none of us would exist. And that would be less good. Especially for us. If you ask why God created you as he did with all of your flaws and weaknesses instead of creating you with perfect strength and willpower and no inclination to do wrong, well, maybe God _did_ create that person. But that person (presumably an angel) isn’t you. You’re you. God didn’t have to create you, but would it have been better if he hadn’t? It seems to me that the logical conclusion of this argument is the Many Worlds hypothesis. If existence is good, and God seeks to maximise goodness, and if he can create multiple worlds (at least this one and heaven), then logically he _must_ have created every possible world. Of course, such a state is indistinguishable from one in which every possible world exists due to multiple waveform collapse instead. Except, I suppose, for the worlds in which God interviens directly, which are _only_ possible if God exists. But we clearly don’t live in any of those worlds. ETA: Of course in infinitely many of those worlds, God would be a ruthless tyrant who tortures innocent people endlessly. But the alternative would be for them not to exist, which by Augustine’s definition would be less good. ETAA: Ok, it isn’t _that_ hard to argue with. But it seems like there’s something compelling about it, isn’t there? Isn’t it a good thing that this world exists? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/92 "2011-04-28T16:44:22Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > If God had decided to create only that world, none of us would exist. And that would be less good. Especially for us. Since we wouldn’t exist, we wouldn’t experience any less-goodness. And I think you could just as easily argue that more perfect versions of us would exist, which would be better. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/93 "2011-04-28T16:51:02Z")
It’s true that we wouldn’t experience the less-goodness, but I feel comfortable saying that my existence is good. (Under Augustine’s definitions of good and evil, it’s more explicitly clear.) And those more perfect versions of us already exist, so nothing would be gained by these less-perfect versions not existing. (Least of all would anything be gained for us, of course, since we wouldn’t experience the more-goodness you propose any more than we would experience the less-goodness Augustine proposes.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/94 "2011-04-28T17:05:59Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > It’s true that we wouldn’t experience the less-goodness, but I feel comfortable saying that my existence is good. (Under Augustine’s definitions of good and evil, it’s more explicitly clear.) I don’t have a problem with saying that either. But if we don’t exist, nobody experiences the less-goodness. > [@](#): > > And those more perfect versions of us already exist, so nothing would be gained by these less-perfect versions not existing. Nothing would be lost either. I’m not sold on the Many Worlds version of this, and I don’t think I believe this idea that if a god existed, there would be anything he couldn’t or wouldn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/95 "2011-04-28T20:00:35Z")
“Existence is good” is an assertion with absolutley no support that I can discern. I’m not even sure it makes any semantic sense. Existence as opposed to what? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/96 "2011-04-28T20:05:54Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Soooo. Anyone want to give a shot at why God doesn’t heal amputees? I really always wanted to know that, myself. The answer I’ve heard is though we take God as a healer of people today, we don’t as the creator of people today, and creative miracles will happen when the people are ready to want God as a creator and accept Him as a creator today as well as in the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/97 "2011-04-28T20:13:43Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I’m an atheist, as you know, but I find Augustine’s answer to this hard to argue with. He argues that existence is a good thing; it is a good thing that God has created us. God _did_ create a world of beings who always choose the good: it’s called heaven, and those beings angels. If God had decided to create only that world, none of us would exist. And that would be less good. Especially for us. If you ask why God created you as he did with all of your flaws and weaknesses instead of creating you with perfect strength and willpower and no inclination to do wrong, well, maybe God _did_ create that person. But that person (presumably an angel) isn’t you. You’re you. God didn’t have to create you, but would it have been better if he hadn’t?.. So what you’re saying is that god fucked us over by essentially creating us as emotional and moral cripples. And then he started to punish us for the flaws the he put in us. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/98 "2011-04-28T20:14:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The answer I’ve heard is though we take God as a healer of people today, we don’t as the creator of people today, and creative miracles will happen when the people are ready to want God as a creator and accept Him as a creator today as well as in the beginning. :: reads twice :: Wh-- No, wait, hold on. :: downs shot of Scotch to prepare self :: Okay, what? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/99 "2011-04-28T22:36:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :: reads twice :: > > Wh-- No, wait, hold on. > > :: downs shot of Scotch to prepare self :: > > Okay, what? Sort of my initial reaction too. It was put forth by someone who claimed it was a prophetic message. I don’t know if it was or not. But it is sort of in line with how it seems God works. God doesn’t do it because we don’t have faith that God will do it. Since faith comes from God we need to ask Him for that faith. From scriptures creation was different from healing, creation was from the beginning, healing was won by Jesus coming and living in the flesh and taking punishment “by His stripes we are healed” Though this approach seems a bit legalistic too. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/100 "2011-04-29T11:54:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Sort of my initial reaction too. It was put forth by someone who claimed it was a prophetic message. I don’t know if it was or not. But it is sort of in line with how it seems God works. God doesn’t do it because we don’t have faith that God will do it. Since faith comes from God we need to ask Him for that faith. > > From scriptures creation was different from healing, creation was from the beginning, healing was won by Jesus coming and living in the flesh and taking punishment “by His stripes we are healed” > > Though this approach seems a bit legalistic too. And you know this is from God and not what some person told you? It is your belief in the person or the belief in your own thoughts, for you that works. For many it doesn’t add up! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298.md?page=6)