# God heals? Question FROM a Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298 "2011-04-21T23:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/101 "2011-04-29T17:09:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :: reads twice :: > > Wh-- No, wait, hold on. > > :: downs shot of Scotch to prepare self :: > > Okay, what? Hahaaaa! Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/102 "2011-05-03T01:24:11Z")
What are you expecting to get as an answer to your question? Emotional appeasement? The only possible answers are that, first, if a god exists then your friend’s sickness and suffering, along with countless others at this very moment, added to the countless millions who suffered for no reason other than gratifying the violent drives of other people, they are all intentional and the god made them happen. The second possible answer is that there are no gods. The first answer is what we call schizophrenic. The second is realistic, rational and real. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/103 "2011-05-04T14:09:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But **CJE-MO** (the person to whom I addressed that question) said that free will is unique to humans. If angels have free will, and can live in Heaven right from the moment of their creation, then why can’t people? He amended that statemnet. Even before I said anything. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] What does the word perfect mean in the above quote? [/QUOTE] > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does “perfect” mean? To Dio especially: You can’t even argue from your own statements on this?.. i.e. > [@](#): > > …Angels always choose good > …people who will freely choose good I really get the impression that you simply copied what you thought was a scathing argument from Skald. Since you were already bandying about a definition of people who only choose good. 1. Angels don’t always choose good. Or there wouldn’t have been any that didn’t. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But you say that angels already have free will, and they don’t have to put up with God’s bullshit test to get into Heaven, so what was the point of creating humans? I Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? Humans are created for a different, I would even say better, purpose than the angels, so we are held to different standards. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > God has the ability to create only people who will FREELY choose good. If you are constrained to always choose something, you are not freely choosing it. If I can choose between black and white, then I am free to choose between black and white. If I am constrained from choosing red, then I do not have a free choice between white and red. You are confusing the ability to choose between allowed things with being completely free. What you are proposing is the free choice between good things, and not the free choice of good itself. I claim that God must want the latter. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/104 "2011-05-04T16:39:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > People can only do what God intends them to do. It’s impossible to do anything against God’s will. No, we can only do what he allows us to do. If he chooses to give us free will, then he has **chosen** to \*\*constrain himself \*\*from dictating our actions. So, at that point we can do other than he intends, but still, not more than he allows. He may intend for us to do good, but will that we choose ourselves. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He doesn’t have to limit their ability to choose, justy use his omnipotence to only create those he knows upfront will only choose good. Maybe that programming is accomplished by us having the memories of this life. There was an episode of the show Futurama where the robot needed an upgrade. He didn’t want it and when he was put into the programming machine, he broke out, had an adventure, found he needed the upgrade, and “freely” chose it… except, he never broke out… the upgrade included the implantation of the memories that led to him choosing the upgrade, and that “choice” wasn’t free; or a choice. but, if that’s the way it’s done, we don’t have free will again. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And God knows ahead of time which people will choose good and which people won’t, so what forces him to create people who won’t? It’s easy to choose good when that’s all you ever see, and that’s all anyone around you ever picks. It’s not so easy to choose good when you see people getting away with evil. And like I already alluded to, this isn’t about giving us an easy path. It’s about us freely choosing a difficult one, and showing to ourselves, (not necessarily to him if he already knows,) that we will be willing to always choose good. So, there has to be evil happening around us; it has to be an easy choice; and it has to be possible to get away with it. I don’t know precisely what knowledge you would have to constrain yourself from knowing to give a creature free will, but you may have to constrain yourself from being 100% certain of what they will do in every situation. I don’t know what is precisely meant by predestination, (if I correctly assume the doctrine you speak of.) To my mind, it could mean as little as, knowing our motivations better than we ourselves, always having a contingency that will eventually lead to the desired outcome; much as a parent will try to shape the experiences and choices of a child so they will be socially responsible adults. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does “perfect” mean? what we were already talking about; what you already described, and what I described and you quoted. [QUOTE=ch4rl3s] people who will always choose good [/QUOTE] And what the story says of the “perfect being” I spoke of. Ezek 28:15 Thou wast perfect **in thy ways** from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. created to this: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Angels always choose good but, not staying that way. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/105 "2011-05-04T16:49:39Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > To Dio especially: You can’t even argue from your own statements on this?.. i.e. > > I really get the impression that you simply copied what you thought was a scathing argument from Skald. No. I was asking for myself. I didn’t notice Skald’s post. Asking for the definition of “perfect” is a standard question for me when people use it in theological discussions. Obviously, you can’t answer it, though. > [@](#): > > Since you were already bandying about a definition of people who only choose good. > > 1. Angels don’t always choose good. Or there wouldn’t have been any that didn’t. Cite that there are any that didn’t? The Bible doesn’t say that. > [@](#): > > I Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? > Humans are created for a different, I would even say better, purpose than the angels, so we are held to different standards. This is totally non-responsive. What is this “purpose,” and how can an omnimax God logically require a purpose for anything? > [@](#): > > If you are constrained to always choose something, you are not freely choosing it. There would be no constraint. God could only create people who he knows, by his omnipotence, will choose good _all by themselves_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/106 "2011-05-04T17:04:41Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > No, we can only do what he allows us to do. We can only do what he _intended_[ us to do. He is omnipotent. He knows everything we will do before he creates us. Whatever we do is his own idea. He hits the play button. > [@](#): > > If he chooses to give us free will, then he has **chosen** to \*\*constrain himself \*\*from dictating our actions. He has the option of only creating people who will freely choose good. That does not infringe on free will. > [@](#): > > So, at that point we can do other than he intends Nope. Not logically possible. God knows everything that will happen before it happens. Nothing can happen that he doesn’t intend. > [@](#): > > Maybe that programming is accomplished by us having the memories of this life. There was an episode of the show Futurama where the robot needed an upgrade. He didn’t want it and when he was put into the programming machine, he broke out, had an adventure, found he needed the upgrade, and “freely” chose it… except, he never broke out… the upgrade included the implantation of the memories that led to him choosing the upgrade, and that “choice” wasn’t free; or a choice. but, if that’s the way it’s done, we don’t have free will again. I don’t know what any of this is supposed to mean, or what it has to do with God’s ability to cvhoose who he will create. > [@](#): > > It’s easy to choose good when that’s all you ever see, and that’s all anyone around you ever picks. So? > [@](#): > > It’s not so easy to choose good when you see people getting away with evil. How does that make it any harder? > [@](#): > > And like I already alluded to, this isn’t about giving us an easy path. It’s about us freely choosing a difficult one A difficult path to _what_? > [@](#): > > and showing to ourselves, (not necessarily to him if he already knows,) that we will be willing to always choose good. So, there has to be evil happening around us; it has to be an easy choice; and it has to be possible to get away with it. Why? What is the end game here? > [@](#): > > I don’t know precisely what knowledge you would have to constrain yourself from knowing to give a creature free will None. Look at it this way. For god, watching human lives is like watching video after it happened. he already knows everything that’s going to happen, but that knowledge has no effect on those people ability to choose. > [@](#): > > but you may have to constrain yourself from being 100% certain of what they will do in every situation. No, he doesn’t have to constrain anything. It’s all just video. It’s already happened. Knowing what happened doesn’t alter what happened. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what is precisely meant by predestination, (if I correctly assume the doctrine you speak of.) No. I’m not talking about predestination at all. I’m just talking about God’s omniscience. His ability to know what will happen does not predestine anything > [@](#): > > what we were already talking about; what you already described, and what I described and you quoted. So your definition of “perfect” is people who only choose good? Well that’s easy enough for God to create, but why are such people necessary? Why does God care? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/107 "2011-05-04T18:01:36Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > If you are constrained to always choose something, you are not freely choosing it. If I can choose between black and white, then I am free to choose between black and white. If I am constrained from choosing red, then I do not have a free choice between white and red. You are confusing the ability to choose between allowed things with being completely free. What you are proposing is the free choice between good things, and not the free choice of good itself. I claim that God must want the latter. Though it didn’t actually turn out that way, it was _possible_ for the world to be such that everyone in it freely chose good over evil. They didn’t end up doing this–but they could have. So: It was possible for there to be a world in which everyone freely chose good over evil. Any world that could possibly be is a world God can create. Therefore: God can create a world in which everyone freely chooses good over evil. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/108 "2011-05-04T18:56:11Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > I really get the impression that you simply copied what you thought was a scathing argument from Skald. In the first place, I don’t think I made an argument, devastating or otherwise. I try very hard not to ask rhetorical questions. I was asking you to clarify your position. In the second place, **Diogenes** is not my monkey. He’s perfectly capable of crafting cogent arguments, especially on religion, without any help from me. And we disagree frequently enough that I suspect he’d never consciously echo me anyway. In the third place, did you ever define what _perfect_ meant in the passage I quoted? If so, please point me to the post. If not, please do so. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298/109 "2011-05-05T01:44:50Z")
A Watchtower publication from a few months ago posited the idea that God chose not to use his foreknowledge re: the Garden of Eden and therefore did not know what Adam and Eve were going to do. Apparently, he just wanted to see what they would do. Not very convincing, is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-heals-question-from-a-christian/579298.md?page=5)