# God Helps Widdlest Sniper Victim Recover **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578 "2002-12-13T18:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/181 "2002-12-15T08:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > And of course it does not take any gratitude away from the doctors! Gratitude simply doesn’t work that way. It is an absurd argument, and I am glad you have abandoned it. It doesn’t? Part of gratitude is sincerity, and to thank God above all else (as religious folks, in my experience, are wont to do) is to give him more thanks than those that actually helped - thus reducing the value of the gratitude. To say “Hey doc, thanks for helping me out here, but it was God who made it all possible” is not the same as “Hey doc, thanks for all your work to save me. I owe you my life.” - so, sorry, but the lot of gratitude dispersed has been divided among differing groups and has had its value altered. > [@](#): > > Oh, and super\_head? Keep those false dilemmas coming. It is fun to watch your steadfast conviction that you _must_ choose between rationing off your limited potential gratitude or you _must_ emit gratitude randomly. Maybe I can use you as an example of how not to argue in my logic class. I seem to remember only saying that gratitude works out of economic principles, otherwise it is without value - and thus to give it away freely without exhange of goods or services renders it without value. But if it makes you feel good to keep up the attacks, go ahead - says more about me than you. Have a good night! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/182 "2002-12-15T08:49:26Z")
—The kid is probably _more_ thankful to the surgeons than any of you would be.— Aim that shotgun a little more accurately next time, cowboy. On the facts, this argument silly. Sure, we don’t _know_ whether the boy is truly thankful for the surgeon’s efforts, whether he appreciates the importance of their contribution and all of medical science. We can’t read his mind out of one statement. Maybe he really doesn’t appreciate it: he’s so focused on seeing everything through a form of theological causality that he can’t appreciate the efforts of the people around him. Maybe, but that’s just nuts. It seems pretty freankin out of this world to inimate that he could be unaware that they helped him when one of them is evidently **hugging him** and supporting him **at this very press conferance**! Even if, for some reason, he doesn’t think about it or say it, it would test my sense of reality if he doesn’t just plain FEEL both thankful and sharing a powerful bond with the people who **stuck their hands inside his body** and saved his life. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/183 "2002-12-15T08:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > To say “Hey doc, thanks for helping me out here, but it was God who made it all possible” is not the same as “Hey doc, thanks for all your work to save me. I owe you my life.” - so, sorry, but the lot of gratitude dispersed has been divided among differing groups and has had its value altered. The gratitude you describe is like no kind of gratitude I have ever known, and it seems extremely unlikely that the boy has your ideas about gratitude. So, basically, you are dictating to the rest of the world how they have to feel gratitude. The thing is, I am perfectly willing to accept that this is the way you feel gratitude. But you are unwilling to consider that others feel gratitude in a different way than you. > [@](#): > > I seem to remember only saying that gratitude works out of economic principles, otherwise it is without value - and thus to give it away freely without exhange of goods or services renders it without value. You persist in saying that you have to choose between an economic system of rationing your limited supply of gratitude, or you have to give it away freely and randomly. Calling that a false dilemma is not an attack on you. It is just an observation about your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/184 "2002-12-15T08:52:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Your real argument is that God does not exist, and that therefore he should not be thanked. Nice try, but that’s not what I said at all. I do not happen to believe that God exists, but that’s immaterial to the argument. Notice my statement reads as follows: > [@](#): > > …assigned to a being you have no proof had anything to do with it. not > [@](#): > > …assigned to a being you have no proof exists. Even if God exists, it’s pretty demonstrable in most cases the step-by-step actions taken to stabilize, diagnose, and treat a patient. Now, you can say God helped keep the person alive until the docs could get to him, or that God guided the hands of the surgeon, but you’re grasping at straws, and it’s nothing but a modified God of the Gaps argument. I wonder if he’s feeling cramped in there, by the way…the gaps are getting pretty small. Furthermore, you’re then faced with a rather intractable problem…if God helped heal the person, why in the world did he let that person get hurt in the first place? God had the power to stop it, right? Why didn’t he? Just so he could teach a lesson about his power (in a most tortuous, loopy, indistinct manner?) Why would he need to do that? In that case, then, isn’t God also responsible for the person getting hurt? He had the power to change it, and didn’t. Then, by extension, we can say God is also responsible for the pain, humiliation, difficult recovery, and deep psychological scars the person will suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/185 "2002-12-15T08:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by super\_head \* > I see no reason to be thankful for everyone in the world, as a fair number of them are quite evil in nature and make life worse for the rest of us. Another false dilemma. Why does the presence of evil people in the world preclude you from being grateful simply for having people as a part of your life, even if they haven’t done you any tangible material benefit? > [@](#): > > I would wager most of us . . . go through our lives only worrying about those we know until we are called upon to worry about others by circumstance (e.g. everything from someone holding a door for us **to seeing a tragic car wreck** ). If you see a tragic car wreck, and they’re not people you know personally, why would you feel worried? Speculating a bit here, but if happen to be standing by when the wreck happens, why might you feel an impulse to help? You have no assurance that the people in the blazing car will offer you their gratitude in exchange, and even if they do, that’s little recompense for risking your life, don’t you think? I can hardly claim to have the answers, but _I’ll_ wager that very few doctors, or firemen, or social workers, or Peace Corps volunteers, went into their fields for the sake of pursuing “gratitude”. > [@](#): > > Possibly, or it could leave you like my mother, still fairly bitter about life and people. Anecdotes are great. Especially when you give no details. Call me crazy, but I’d expect that people who have been saved from death might generally express some gratitute for continuing to live. > [@](#): > > If it involves nearly dying, I’ll pass, thanks. **As I SAID, YOU’LL GET THERE SOMEDAY. AND NOT IN THE SENSE OF “NEARLY”, EITHER.** Face it, you’re gonna die. You could die tomorrow, from a sniper, a car wreck, a brain embolism. You have no idea how many days you have left on this earth. The last time you saw one of your loved ones could be the _last_ time you see them. Or the next time. Or the time after that. Sorry, but until you have a similar epiphany, I don’t think you have any right to criticize the feelings of someone who has–such as the DC sniper victim. > [@](#): > > Gratitude has value out of simple economics. I think a lot of people would disagree with you there, Grasshopper. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/186 "2002-12-15T08:55:58Z")
Apos: > [@](#): > > Even if, for some reason, he doesn’t think about it or say it, it would test my sense of reality if he doesn’t just plain FEEL both thankful and sharing a powerful bond with the people who stuck their hands inside his body and saved his life. There is absolutely no reason to think that the boy is not extremely thankful for the doctors. That was the one of my main points. Thanking God in no way means that he is any less thankful to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/187 "2002-12-15T11:47:09Z")
Arnold wrote: > [@](#): > > I’ve seen him argue the pros and cons of may different types of statements on the SDMB. But here what he’s saying is different: it is wrong to bring up the statements made up by this person as a subject of discussion on the SDMB, or judge the person on the basis of those statements. Which is a first for him as far as I remember. But in this instance, the person is a child. I don’t think it’s wise to judge children on the basis of what they say the same way you do adults. And it’s especially tacky to drag a child who’s been shot by a sniper into a lighthearted forum for the purpose of ridiculing his expression of gratitude. That’s just … bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/188 "2002-12-15T14:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*And it’s especially tacky to drag a child who’s been shot by a sniper into a lighthearted forum for the purpose of ridiculing his expression of gratitude. > > That’s just … bizarre. \*\* It is indeed. The OP was in the poorest of taste. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/189 "2002-12-15T15:03:22Z")
I can’t imagine what your motivation was in starting this thread, Eve, but I can say that I’ve rarely read such a cold-hearted, provocative OP. Perhaps the ubiquitous Christmas music and tacky lawn ornaments put you in a reeeaally cranky mood. If ridiculing this innocent young man brought you _any_ measure of joy, let me assure you that your atheism is not what sets you apart from the rest of the crowd. It’s your lack of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/190 "2002-12-15T15:36:59Z")
I agree with PunditLisa. What if the kid had thanked “Nature” instead of “God”? I have enormous respect for the healing power of nature and have seen it do many things my medical knowledge was powerless to do. I don’t know what this thirteen year old kid meant by “God” in the context of the article. How can you? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/191 "2002-12-15T16:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > To thank some unknown entity instead of them would be to LESSEN the thanks I give them - in other words, I’m saying “Yes, doctor, you saved me, but without GOD you couldn’t have done it.” Some thanks! > > Give gratitude where gratitude is due, that’s all we’re asking. I assume you protest against the awarding of an Academy Award for best director, on the grounds that it demeans the work of the actors. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/192 "2002-12-15T16:15:40Z")
I’ve seen enough rolleyes smilies for one MPSIMS thread. I agree the OP was in poor taste, and unfortunately, so was most of the ensuing debate (and I use the term lightly). Closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578.md?page=9)