# God Helps Widdlest Sniper Victim Recover **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578 "2002-12-13T18:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/41 "2002-12-13T20:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*Actually, I think we’re talking about the larger principle as well as the specific case. > > Plus, I believe the medicsl charts would show that it was demonstrably NOT God who saved the kid. Unless, of course, God’s Mighty Hand intubated the kid in the ambulance, held the IV bag, etc. > > And if that’s the case, if I were an EMT, I’d sure as hell be asking God, “Why didn’t you prevent this?” between chest compressions. > > Come to think of it, I can see why God might want to remain incognito. \*\* “Do you truly believe that I came down through the ages to rule an anthill for a day?” — Jesus (_Kahlil Gibran_) ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/42 "2002-12-13T20:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Please provide the cite where the kid didn’t thank the doctors that helped him. In fact, wait a second, there’s not ONE QUOTE AT ALL from the child in the article, so we don’t know what he said at all. > > What if he said “I thank God I’m alive, and thank you to all these doctors and nurses who helped me through this hard time”. > > Would that be ok? > > In short, you have NO IDEA what the kid said, you only know what the reporter reported, so you naturally assume he’s some bizarre fundie who believes in faith healing. > > Insulting to theists? You bet. \*\* You accuse me of assuming what the kid said then you snap right back and accuse me of assuming something else. Highly amusing. I accused the kid of bad manners. And with your hypothetical quote from the kid, I sure as HELL would take issue with that. That’s unbelievably RUDE. Talk about one hell of a backhanded thanks. Unless god was waiting right there to repair damaged blood vessels, add blood volume and repair the damage to internal organs that kid would have died. [sarcasm] But seeing how the child ended up on the ground bleeding to death and had to go to the hospital I’m guessing god dropped the ball[/sarcasm]. If I thought he believed in faith healing, that’s a matter for his family to decide, since he’s a minor and cannot make medical decisions for himself. In fact I probably would have had issues with the relative who foced medical treatment on someone who didn’t want it. And thanks Jar, it’s been a while since I’ve been told how wrong it is to be an athiest and how much my opinion offends you thiests. Take your persecution complex somewhere else, because I’m sick and tired of listening to it. God forbid that you should realize that I get offended by your attitude and attacks on how persecuted you feel by athiests that speak up. It’s bad enough how I get treated when I politely inform people who try to make me find jesus that I’m an athiest but having someone go apeshit on me and I accuse someone of bad manners just pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/43 "2002-12-13T20:40:56Z")
Ok, somehow I came across as disagreeing with you **jar** , when it was my intention to be agreeing with you. FTR, I think the kid can say whatever he wants. I may do a little :rolleyes: in my head, but that’s it. Yes, _I_ think he’s mistaken if he thinks God had a hand in his recovery any more than God has a hand in everything that happens to everybody, great or small, good or bad, but that’s my business, not his. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/44 "2002-12-13T20:41:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > What if he said “I thank God I’m alive, and thank you to all these doctors and nurses who helped me through this hard time”. Should he be also saying “I thank God that I was shot, so that God could prove his magnanimity by later saving me?” ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/45 "2002-12-13T20:43:23Z")
CRorex, if you want to take this discussion to the next level, you should go to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/46 "2002-12-13T20:43:52Z")
Apparently God hates all of the sniper victims who didn’t survive. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/47 "2002-12-13T20:47:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*Should he be also saying “I thank God that I was shot, so that God could prove his magnanimity by later saving me?” \*\* “I thank God that I almost drowned in my own blood, and that I soiled myself in terror.” ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/48 "2002-12-13T20:52:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > [Should he be also saying “I thank God that I was shot, so that God could prove his magnanimity by later saving me?” I think next time I see Ogre, I’ll shoot him in the back - then I’ll perform CPR and compress the wound and when he lives, he can thank me. I’ll be a hero! Sometimes it seems like God has Munchausen-by-Proxy disorder. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/49 "2002-12-13T20:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*CRorex, if you want to take this discussion to the next level, you should go to The BBQ Pit. \*\* Will do, but I’m not goign to have anything more to say on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/50 "2002-12-13T21:00:24Z")
I don’ t think we’d be in risk if this getting sent to the pit if the OP had been about an adult saying the same thing. There is a legitimate debate about the nature of God and how he does and maybe doesn’t directly influence our lives but I don’t think that is what has people riled. What I objected to was belitting a child for his still developing beliefs. I’m 41 years old and I’m still wrestling with my relationship to God. I don’t know the nature of God. I don’t know if God helps me find my car keys but I’m thankful anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/51 "2002-12-13T21:01:01Z")
CRorex, I mean this seriously, and you can believe it or not. You are free to be an atheist. I know that you’re never going to change my mind and I’m never going to change yours. This child believes that God had SOME HAND in his recovery…what that hand was we can’t know. Did GOd give him the will to live? Does he believe that God actually performed surgery? Did he read the Bible while in recovery…we don’t know. We also don’t know exactly what he said. I, while crediting doctors and medication and my husband with my recovery from depression (so far), I also credit my faith in God with leading me through the darkest times. It was, in my humble opinion, a combination of the two. Just as you are free to not believe in any diety…I am free to believe in as many as I want. But you know what? I’m also thirty years old. I’ve been through a lot of stuff and a lot of study and soul searching to learn things like free will and why is there evil, and why do bad things happen. I’ve thought and rethought my faith for probably fifteen years and I’m still not settled on what I thoroughly believe or, more importantly, how to articulate it clear enough for others to understand what’s really in my heart. This kid is THIRTEEN. All I’m asking is that we cut him some slack. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/52 "2002-12-13T21:01:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*Should he be also saying “I thank God that I was shot, so that God could prove his magnanimity by later saving me?” \*\* Are _you_ thankful when _you_ get shot? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/53 "2002-12-13T21:35:01Z")
Never been shot. But if it’s the expression of God’s will, shouldn’t I be? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/54 "2002-12-13T21:42:39Z")
I don’t know about thankful **Arnold**. Does one need to be thankful at every expression of God’s will? Couldn’t one be pissed at him? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/55 "2002-12-13T21:43:22Z")
To respond to the other points - if a 13-year-old wants to Thank God because of something in his young life, I am not going to be upsed about it and write a letter to the editor. But I’m not going to think “what a touching display of piety” either. If anything, I would assume that this is a Christian who is theologically confused, in that he presumes to know God’s will (unless, as stated above, we assume that everything that happens in the world is God’s will.) I would hope that another, more knowledgeable person sharing his faith, would help him understand his error. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/56 "2002-12-13T21:43:22Z")
Why would that be the expression of God’s will? 😃 We have wills of our own, y’know. 🙂 I doubt that the little boy was thinking about theistic epistemology when he thanked God. He was just grateful to be okay. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/57 "2002-12-13T21:45:28Z")
Eonwe - I would imagine being pissed at God would be a major no-no, wouldn’t it? Libertarian - then that would relate to the post that I snuck in there - if we can’t know what is or is not God’s will, then the boy is being presumptuous and assuming facts not in evidence, which, at the SDMB, would be frowned upon. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/58 "2002-12-13T21:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I accused the kid of bad manners. This amuses m.: “I thank God I survived this ordeal.” “_How rude!_” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/59 "2002-12-13T22:00:54Z")
OP: > [@](#): > > Iran Brown, 13, told reporters at Children’s Hospital that he credits God with his **remarkable recovery** from a bullet wound that shredded his organs and threatened his life . . . **Kalhoun** : > [@](#): > > The kid must feel pretty guilty that god chose to save him and he let all those other victims die. **Ogre** : > [@](#): > > He had to be ‘chosen,’ didn’t he? I mean, after all, so many others died. **Inky-** : > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON DC (AP)-Thirteen Sniper Victims: Hey God! Where The Heck Were You When We Were Getting Shot? **grendel72** : > [@](#): > > Apparently God hates all of the sniper victims who didn’t survive. Maybe y’all should take a remedial reading course. I don’t see where the kid credited God for his not being killed instantly. Apparently the kid credited God _for his recovery_ from a very severe bullet wound that generally shredded much of his insides. Fact is, regardless of what the surgeons can do, if you brought in ten victims with very similar wounds, some would make it and some wouldn’t. And the doctors frequently don’t know why. Maybe the difference was God’s presence in the kid’s life; maybe it wasn’t. Being loved, having a hand to hold onto, can make a big difference in physically stressful situations like that. And, oddly enough, many of us believers are in it because we feel that there is no greater source of love, no stronger, gentler hand to hold onto, than that of our God. Maybe the kid couldn’t articulate what he meant in a way that would satisfy the great intellects of this board. But the kid’s _thirteen_, for cryin’ out loud. As **Padeye** said, “I like to think that on SDMB we pick on people our own size.” Thank you, **Eve** , for sneering at this ‘widdle’ :rolleyes: kid. And thank you, **super\_head** , **Ogre** , **Kalhoun** , **CRorex** , **Inky-** , **Arnold Winkelreid** , and anyone else I missed who joined in the ridicule of this kid for not having been sufficiently PC in his thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/60 "2002-12-13T22:02:01Z")
**Arnold** , I think that’d depend on who you asked 🙂 I do not believe in God, but I don’t understand why one would have to be happy and joyous at everything God did. > [@](#): > > I doubt that the little boy was thinking about theistic epistemology when he thanked God. He was just grateful to be okay. Well said, **Lib**. I think there are two conversations going on in this thread: the first being whether this kid was behaving appropriately in saying whatever he said, and the second on whether the kid was right on a religious level. You just answered the first question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578.md?page=4)