# God Helps Widdlest Sniper Victim Recover **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578 "2002-12-13T18:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/121 "2002-12-14T02:16:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > \*\*This thread reminds me of why I would never donate food or money to starving children. > > What if on receiving the life-saving sustenance, the children started to weep and thank God? > > I just can’t take the chance that the ungrateful little scum would thank someone other than me. \*\* Yep, me too. As Nightime points out this is a real risk. It’s not hard to see how Eve was harmed (harmed!) by this young boy’s callous statement. What kind of ungrateful little brat he must be to not consider how Eve would feel. I too will join in the highly appropriate and extremely justified atheist eye rolling. :rolleyes: {{{{{{Eve}}}}}} You poor, poor thing. How will you ever recover from this devastating blow? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/122 "2002-12-14T02:18:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > And I think, ARNOLD, that God’s mind is so far beyond (I assume you meant beyond?) yours (or mine) that you don’t have any frame of reference whatsoever to judge whether I’m fooling myself or not. We could call it a draw then. Or we could say that we are all fumbling in darkness for the truth, taking different paths, and perhaps I am not so different (or any more advanced) than the thirteen-year-old in the OP, and that we should unit in our quest instead of arguing? I would say that if I weren’t afraid of being carried out of town on a rail by the angry mob of cynics who would be outraged at such a schmaltzy conclusion. > [@](#): > > But if they’re not up to thanking God for negative feedback, what are the chances they’ll thank you for it? They will be grateful and appreciative, in the proper Christian spirit! But in real life I don’t approach people who say “Thank God for this happy turn of events” and tell them “Let me explain to you why your statement is _wrong on just so many levels_.” That’s what the SDMB is for. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/123 "2002-12-14T02:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > RTFirefly, I think the SDMB is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss the logical implications of someone’s words (even a thirteen-year-old’s words), as publicized by the media. I agree, **Arnold**. There’s a big difference, though, between using someone’s off-the-cuff remarks as the basis of a serious discussion (more or less divorced from their source), and holding the speaker responsible for the remarks. The OP clearly did the latter, by ridiculing this kid for his giving thanks to God for his recovery. We are not harming the 13 year old boy, because he is extremely unlikely to ever hear of this discussion. But that doesn’t make it any less wrong, to ridicule him in absentia for his lack of theological acumen. * * * BTW, when does this thread get moved somewhere? It’s become a fairly serious debate; it’s no longer MPSIMS material. I would think it belongs in GD if it’s still this side of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/124 "2002-12-14T02:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > RTFirefly - then I will say that you are being overly sensitive. You may be right. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/125 "2002-12-14T02:39:34Z")
**No one has been attacking the boy**. The media idiots who choose to sell this as a mush headed “human interest story”, however, are fuckin’ morons. The tone of their story belittles the people who **did** save the boy’s life, and insults the victims who didn’t survive by implying God didn’t consider them worth saving. There is nothing wrong with the boy saying what he said, **nobody has said there is**. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/126 "2002-12-14T02:43:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > Sorry, but no matter who you are, if you say something on the public record, your words are subject to scrutiny. Well, sure, they’re _subject_ to scrutiny. That doesn’t always mean it’s _fair_ to judge the _speaker_ on the basis of that brief remark. No, your ridicule isn’t hurting him. But it’s still wrong, whether or not you’re right on the underlying theological questions. (And I’ve got a defense of the kid on those grounds, back toward the top of page 2, sitting unrebutted.) > [@](#): > > It’s no freaking miracle. Look at the medical charts. Cite? I’m serious here. As **bodypoet** ’s story demonstrates, just because somebody was in the hospital, and they recovered, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a miracle. So provide a link to the medical charts, please, so the doctors in our midst can critique them. Until then, I’m afraid you’re BSing. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/127 "2002-12-14T02:47:07Z")
**grendel** - I refer you to the thread title. If that isn’t intended as ridicule, you and I aren’t speaking the same language. There’s nothing in the OP to suggest that **Eve** ’s ridicule was aimed at the media. You’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/128 "2002-12-14T02:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\ ***No one has been attacking the boy**. > > There is nothing wrong with the boy saying what he said, **nobody has said there is**. \*\* Huh. You read the same thread I did? > [@](#): > > The kid must feel pretty guilty that god chose to save him and he let all those other victims die. I’d be keepin’ my yap shut if I was him. Ogre thought the kid **should** have said… > [@](#): > > “I sure am glad the doctors were able to save my life. Thank you.” > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone said that. Free country, the kid can say whatever he likes, even that Binky the Magic Space Clown saved him or that Avril Lavigne is a great musician - but it doesn’t mean others can’t say he’s mistaken, does it? CRorex said > [@](#): > > Eve I agree with you. The damn kid should be thanking the ER doctors, surgeons, nurses and blood donars who saved his life. > > He should also be thanking the researchers that developed the medication that’s going to help him stave off infection now that he’s missing a spleen. (my underline) and later… > [@](#): > > I accused the kid of bad manners. Guess some of us are confused because it **seems** like some posters here **are** laying some ridicule on the comments of a 13 year old gun shot victim who was speaking to a group of reporters. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/129 "2002-12-14T02:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > God works in mysterious ways not clear to man. [Jim Hacker] Let me make one thing quite clear: Sir Humphrey is not God, OK? [/Jim Hacker] ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/130 "2002-12-14T03:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Cite? > > I’m serious here. As bodypoet’s story demonstrates, just because somebody was in the hospital, and they recovered, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a miracle. > > So provide a link to the medical charts, please, so the doctors in our midst can critique them. Until then, I’m afraid you’re BSing. You’re gambling from a busted flush here, and you know it. I could as easily say (and with more logical justification) that since it was a theist that said that God healed him, he has the burden of proof. So let’s drop the frivolous tactics, shall we? Jodi had it precisely right. It is ultimately a matter of faith, and I don’t dispute your right to believe it. However, since the issue came up, I feel perfectly justified in telling you how I see it. So, if you want to play logical games, let’s start with first principles. The theist has the burden of proof. Or, let’s put it another way, out of any Emergency Room medical logs, let’s pick 100 cases of severely injured people, weed out those that have recovered, and see just how many of those are attributable to judicious oversight, fast response, good medicines, and dedication. Then, let’s guess how many would have died right there on the gurney if all we did was gather round and pray for a miracle. True, nobody can say _for sure_, but I’d lay my money on the docs. And you’d be a poor man if you did the opposite. And let’s not all be simple and obfuscatory. We’ve moved well beyond the point of _only_ talking about the sniper victim and the circumstances under which he thanked God. And suddenly **RTFirefly** , it’s wrong of me to scrutinize a comment made which I believe indicates an unfortunate reliance on divine power above and beyond the specific case of this child? Please. Who are you to tell me what I should and should not speak of? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/131 "2002-12-14T04:09:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > Wow. So that means that though you criticized him, I shouldn’t criticize you? Never said that either, but in the act of criticizing me SOLELY for criticizing what he said, we end up with an argumentative version of it being turtles all the way down. The larger issue of the “thank heavens for all the good things” is being discussed, forget the kid. > [@](#): > > Well, let’s see: he thanked God, and apparently didn’t thank the people you and the rest of the local atheist contingent thought he should have thanked, when someone stuck a microphone under his nose. OK, don’t forget the kid. Fine. And yes, sue me that I think you should thank those that verifiably saved your life. Tell me, do you think if he had been allowed to lay on the pavement that he would have sprung to his feet and said “THANK YOU, JESUS!” - do you? > [@](#): > > Sounds to me like he was politically incorrect, from the atheist contingent’s perspective. And that’s what he’s getting pilloried for. What’s with this political correctness bullsh\*t that you guys keep throwing around? He’s getting piled on because his statement was irrational. Somehow I doubt that if he said “I just wanna thank Binky the Magic Space Clown and Teddy Roosevelt for saving my life” that you’d be coming to his defense. I think we’ve hit a nerve here. > [@](#): > > But even if it’s not a kid, not every word uttered by some shmoe who briefly makes the news deserves to have his words treated thusly. Buncha vultures. You know, if we were mass media, I might agree with you. But it’s a damn message board, lighten the hell up. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/132 "2002-12-14T04:26:27Z")
Uh, Beagledave? You underlined a portion of my statement in which I said that we should be allowed to say that we think the boy is mistaken - now explain to me (I’m a bit slow apparently) how that means I think the boy should not have been allowed to say what he said? It’s a subtle difference, but if you stick with me, I’m sure you’ll understand - here we go: 1. There is nothing wrong with the boy saying what he said. That is, there is nothing wrong with his action of free speech. 2. I disagree with what he said. That is, I think WHAT he said was wrong, not that HIS SAYING IT was wrong. Got it? Good. Now, let’s do keep up next time. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/133 "2002-12-14T05:11:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > We are not harming the 13 year old boy, because he is extremely unlikely to ever hear of this discussion. But that doesn’t make it any less wrong, to ridicule him in absentia for his lack of theological acumen. Perhaps wrong in the abstract, but then again, at this board, I have seen people speculate on the colour of the skin of Michael Jackson’s new baby, discuss the drinking habits of George W. Bush’s twin daughters, make fun of Inky-'s neighbours for their Christmas decorations, gripe about their their nephew and sister-in-law’s behaviour at a family gathering, etc… etc… (to take some random recent examples from the board) Some of those people were involuntarily thrust in the media limelight, some others are private individuals who might not enjoy that their lives are being discussed here. This case of this 13-year-old is not novel. > [@](#): > > BTW, when does this thread get moved somewhere? It’s become a fairly serious debate; it’s no longer MPSIMS material. I’ll leave that up to the MPSIMS moderators, but in my opinion it doesn’t hurt to have an occasional thread in MPSIMS that goes beyond flirting or jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/134 "2002-12-14T06:10:16Z")
Re: Donating food to kids who will say it was just God. I still donate food to kids. I donate money, as well. But I also REALLY appreciate it when the shelter sends a thank you letter to the local paper, or the kids appear on a Labor Day or Easter Seals telethon to thank the donors, or when they do whatever it is that’s a good way to thank an anonymous donor. Hell, even Catholic Charities thanks the donors AND God, in my ex-church’s bulliten, every now and then. To not thank people who have demonstrably done good is just rude, and, while it wouldn’t stop me from helping someone, if I knew they wouldn’t thank me, it sure is nice to get a “thanks”. Given that all we know of this kid is that he thanked God, and ASSUMING (big assumption, but I think that’s what this debate is based on) that he didn’t thank the surgeons, he’s being rude. Forgivably rude, under the circumstances, to be sure. But still rude. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/135 "2002-12-14T06:17:14Z")
How far does this verbal combat have to go before it gets moved to **GD’s**? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/136 "2002-12-14T07:01:06Z")
It’s not a GD by far. It’s not a Pit Rant either, although perhaps it should have been. I honestly don’t see how one could get riled up about _anyone_ thanking God for an unexpected recovery. To me, it reads as if the OP was looking for offense, and found it. Now y’all be nice and behave, as this thread is in MPSIMS. It’s not going anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/137 "2002-12-14T10:49:20Z")
Eonwe wrote: > [@](#): > > Lib, if you’re going to assert that this kid was correctly thanking God for his recovery, and assert that God had no role in getting the kid shot in the first place, then you’ve got to admit to a completely arbitrary set of guidelines as to where God does and does not involve himself with mortals, and that set of guidelines is completely based on your own opinion. I never said that he _correctly_ thanked God. I don’t think that he reviewed in his mind the ontological arguments from Anselm to Tisthammer, and then decided that thanking God would be “correct”. I think that he thanked God _because he was grateful_. * * * Coldfire wrote: > [@](#): > > To me, it reads as if the OP was looking for offense, and found it. For me, it was like opening a thread titled **Baby Smiles at Mother** , only to find a meek rant that the baby’s smile was compromised because the kid was slobbering. When people express confounded surprise, someone jumps in agreeing with the OP, and pointing out that people don’t slobber in polite society. And that we should tell them so at SD. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/138 "2002-12-14T11:48:53Z")
Damnit, why can’t I ever find these threads when they’re first starting out? It’s just so hard to make a difference on page 3, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/139 "2002-12-14T13:13:14Z")
I guess I am stupid for thinking that Michaelangelo was to be thanked for all the paintings. All along it was the paintbrush. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578/140 "2002-12-14T13:33:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > You’re gambling from a busted flush here, and you know it. I could as easily say (and with more logical justification) that since it was a theist that said that God healed him, he has the burden of proof. Nope, I’ve got the cards. You see, Iran Brown didn’t make an assertion on this board, or in a similar forum where one should expect to back up one’s statements. You did. Therefore, cite, please. Them’s the rules. > [@](#): > > So let’s drop the frivolous tactics, shall we? Identify one, and I will. > [@](#): > > Jodi had it precisely right. It is ultimately a matter of faith, and I don’t dispute your right to believe it. However, since the issue came up, I feel perfectly justified in telling you how I see it. **Jodi** has made a case that I have trouble with. I’ve made what I feel is a more sound case, but nobody’s bothered to address it, so it still stands. Besides, as it says [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53021-2002Dec13.html), > [@](#): > > His chief surgeon, Martin Eichelberger, sitting at Iran’s side during the news conference and frequently reaching over to hug him, attributed much of the boy’s steady progress to a positive attitude. There might - just _might_ - be a possibility that the kid’s faith was the source of his positive attitude. > [@](#): > > Or, let’s put it another way, out of any Emergency Room medical logs, let’s pick 100 cases of severely injured people, weed out those that have recovered, and see just how many of those are attributable to judicious oversight, fast response, good medicines, and dedication. Then, let’s guess how many would have died right there on the gurney if all we did was gather round and pray for a miracle. True, nobody can say _for sure_, but I’d lay my money on the docs. And you’d be a poor man if you did the opposite. Now **you** are the one who’s engaging in “frivolous tactics” - specifically straw-man games. You are rebutting a position I have not taken. Knock yourself out. > [@](#): > > And let’s not all be simple and obfuscatory. We’ve moved well beyond the point of _only_ talking about the sniper victim and the circumstances under which he thanked God. For the most part, I’ve concerned myself strictly with the child, and posters’ response to him. Although I did have some remarks that addressed the broader question. If you want to debate the broader issue, that’s fine. But you will have to either rassle with the debaters that are going there, or address my remarks that were germane to that. So far, nobody has done the latter, so I’ve got nothing to say there until someone does. > [@](#): > > And suddenly **RTFirefly** , it’s wrong of me to scrutinize a comment made which I believe indicates an unfortunate reliance on divine power above and beyond the specific case of this child? I think it’s perfectly fine to have a general debate about whether prayer and faith can make a difference in one’s physical well-being, even using this kid’s remarks as a jumping-off place. But I think ridiculing and deriding 13 year old Iran Brown for his lack of theological correctness or sophistication demonstrates a lack of character on the part of the posters who have indulged in this practice. > [@](#): > > Please. Who are you to tell me what I should and should not speak of? Who are you to tell Iran Brown what he should or should not speak of? Good. Now shut up, and I’ll do the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-helps-widdlest-sniper-victim-recover/142578.md?page=8)