# God I hate Game Of Thrones **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 18, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028 "2013-04-18T12:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/61 "2013-04-20T18:08:23Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > You mean the Richard the Lionheart who executed POWs en masse, first led an army at the age of 16, fathered a bastard son, had petty squabbles with his allies, faced rumors about homosexual behavior, had a politically manipulative mother, a younger brother who tried to usurp his throne, and was killed in a relatively insignificant battle? It seems like there’s already a lot of characters in Game of Thrones like that. Amen :p. Medieval dynasts were pretty much all “insufferable assholes” to one degree or another, at least by modern standards. Richard I was often cited even by contemporaries as the model of a medieval king. This because he was an excellent general and highly charismatic - a larger than life character. But he was also a greedy, grasping, backstabbing, conniving butcher of a man who was well on his way into running his composite realm into the ground when he took an arrow to the knee ( err…crossbow bolt to the neck ). Also he was probably pretty fat ;). I rather like that there are no real Aragorn son of Arathorns in GoT. Jon Snow and Daenerys might come closest, which is why at one time it was speculated they would end up as the ruling couple if and when Martin gets around to tieing the whole thing up. But at this point I’m kinda doubting he goes that obvious. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/62 "2013-04-20T23:39:42Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I like _Game of Thrones_ very much, but I agree it could be better. Diverge more from the source material, build the world more, explore stories of common people not lusting for power. Alas, I expect doubling the running time and production expense of the series in this way would not result in a commensurate increase in HBO subscriptions and DVD sales. Certainly they could make a better adaptation, so everything makes more sense to those who haven’t read the books, but exploring the lives of the peasants isn’t really what GoT is all about. The only time it’s important what the common people think or feel is when they’re starving and their mob is about to overrun your procession. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/63 "2013-04-21T00:30:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Good thing you didn’t see the recreation of a spiral galaxy made with severed horse heads and other horse bits in the latest episode then. or the two attempted rapes. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/64 "2013-04-21T01:05:24Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > …exploring the lives of the peasants isn’t really what GoT is all about. The only time it’s important what the common people think or feel is when they’re starving and their mob is about to overrun your procession. Exactly. That is a weakness. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/65 "2013-04-21T01:47:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I must admit that I have no interest is watching the show. I read GoT, CoK, SoS, waited, waited, waited, read A Feast for Crows, was less than impressed for the amount of time it took to get that one written, waited, waited, waited, and found I could not get myself to give enough fucks to get through the first quarter of A Dance with Dragons. > > Maybe I have grown out of the audience for Epic Fantasy, but I just do not care anymore. The problem isn’t the genre, it’s that the story effectively stops even pretending to have a clear arc. The OP basically nails it; GoT starts as a story, but ends up as a soap opera, with characters laid low and achieving victory in a neverending string of random victories and defeats. When you start the books, there is what appears to be a fairly interesting set of stories going on, which one kind of assumes will eventually merge together in an interesting way; 1. The War of the Four Kings, 2. The ascendancy and return of Danaerys Targaryen, and 3. The zombies. So you read and read and read and then realize - nope, it’s not happening. There is no conclusion. That’s not to say the characters aren’t interesting. Some are, and Martin to his credit is good at not writing characters in pure black and white; the Starks are the good guys at first, but Catelyn Stark is largely responsible for starting a horrible and unnecessary war. The Lannisters are kinda the bad guys but Jaime isn’t that bad and everyone loves Tyrion. Danaerys is sort of a heroine but she’s also kind of insane. But they just meander, on and on, story without end and without point. Characters die, and new ones take their place, as with any soap opera. Of course, that’s kind of the point. Martin’s essential point here is that you CAN’T win the Game of Thrones. If you have no power your head will get cut off, and if you do have power people will hate you and take it away and then cut your head off. The entire struggle is pointless, endless, without any hope of resolution, but the people fighting it have to keep fighting it or else they die. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/66 "2013-04-21T06:21:24Z")
I know it’s set in a medieval world but I hate the way that women are treated in this world. I’ve read the books but not watched the series much. I want to read the last book to find out how things end for Sansa, Arya, Tyrion and Daenerys, but i won’t buy them, just get them from the library. I hope Cersei gets killed in an entertaining fashion because I hate her. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/67 "2013-04-21T07:41:56Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Exactly. That is a weakness. Not really, the story is brilliant as it is, and compared to most fantasy the characters and the events are quite engaging, and nobody’s a peasant. Besides, in the setting of general medieval times, a peasants life is grueling and uninteresting. And there are more than a few non-noble POV characters, at least for a short time. The Captain Of The Guard, actually name might be “hotah” or “aeotah” or something, in Dorne, he’s a POV character for a while. 3rd book or so, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/68 "2013-04-21T07:47:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The problem isn’t the genre, it’s that the story effectively stops even pretending to have a clear arc. > > The OP basically nails it; GoT starts as a story, but ends up as a soap opera, with characters laid low and achieving victory in a neverending string of random victories and defeats. When you start the books, there is what appears to be a fairly interesting set of stories going on, which one kind of assumes will eventually merge together in an interesting way; > > 1. The War of the Four Kings, > 2. The ascendancy and return of Danaerys Targaryen, and > 3. The zombies. > > So you read and read and read and then realize - nope, it’s not happening. There is no conclusion. > > That’s not to say the characters aren’t interesting. Some are, and Martin to his credit is good at not writing characters in pure black and white; the Starks are the good guys at first, but Catelyn Stark is largely responsible for starting a horrible and unnecessary war. The Lannisters are kinda the bad guys but Jaime isn’t that bad and everyone loves Tyrion. Danaerys is sort of a heroine but she’s also kind of insane. But they just meander, on and on, story without end and without point. Characters die, and new ones take their place, as with any soap opera. > > Of course, that’s kind of the point. Martin’s essential point here is that you CAN’T win the Game of Thrones. If you have no power your head will get cut off, and if you do have power people will hate you and take it away and then cut your head off. The entire struggle is pointless, endless, without any hope of resolution, but the people fighting it have to keep fighting it or else they die. Wouldn’t a realist say the same thing about many real wars? 😛 Anyway I find the story to be that much more gripping for how it gives a very strong appearance of realism. Robb dies not because he’s a ‘bad guy’ or GRRM had singled him out to die at the beginning but because of a fairly logical progression coming from his actions. Most fantasy is predictable, derivative drivel, where the heroes survive just because they’re the heros, but ASOIAF clearly breaks free of this mold. And I really think the individual stories become that much more meaningful if people aren’t safe just because they’re noble or well-liked or ‘good.’ It gives the w hole interaction a greater emotional impact. And finally: I find the story quite coherent, in the sense of, like reality, a thousand different causes leading to a thousand different effects. Treat the story like a unique reality and it all falls into place, insomuch as it’s a story, because that is part of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/69 "2013-04-21T10:26:55Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > You mean the Richard the Lionheart who executed POWs en masse, first led an army at the age of 16, fathered a bastard son, had petty squabbles with his allies, faced rumors about homosexual behavior, had a politically manipulative mother, a younger brother who tried to usurp his throne, and was killed in a relatively insignificant battle? It seems like there’s already a lot of characters in Game of Thrones like that. I’d just like to say that this is more or less what I was going to post, but you did it way better than I would have. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/70 "2013-04-21T12:59:42Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **pjnlsn**. We prefer that people avoid spoiling books and movies for others who haven’t experienced them yet. Please use a spoiler box – place {spoiler} {/spoiler} around the text in question, using instead of {} – for material that gives away plot points. This is especially important in Game of Thrones threads, where many people watching the HBO series haven’t read the books. Thanks – and again, welcome. Hope you’re finding plenty of interesting discussions. **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/71 "2013-04-21T13:05:27Z")
> [@anya\_marie](#): > > I know it’s set in a medieval world but I hate the way that women are treated in this world. It’s set in a fictional world. Everything that happens is made up, there is someone with complete control over the story. The whole thing is basically made for people to derive visual pleasure from rape. Words cannot describe how much this series disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/72 "2013-04-21T13:28:40Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > It’s set in a fictional world. Everything that happens is made up, there is someone with complete control over the story. > > The whole thing is basically made for people to derive visual pleasure from rape. Words cannot describe how much this series disgusts me. I disagree. The depictions of rape, lie the depictions of other cruelties and outrages, are not meant to be pleasurable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/73 "2013-04-21T13:56:40Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > The whole thing is basically made for people to derive visual pleasure from rape. Exactly how many episodes have you seen? ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/74 "2013-04-21T14:25:34Z")
I don’t watch the show, because every time I did I had to leave the room because of the way women were used and abused for visual pleasure, with no power outside their sexual power (unless they are basically a boy). But I’ve seen rather a lot of it, I’ve lived with people who watched it constantly. Of course the rape is for visual pleasure. If it wasn’t it wouldn’t be watched, or certainly not widely enjoyed. Visual pleasure from what you watch doesn’t mean you see her enjoying it. It can still be sad. It’s just also visually pleasurable. Anyway, it’s honestly too depressing. It makes me sad how little people realise what the effects are of what they see, and how our visual culture relates to rape culture. I’ll leave the thread now. I know, everyone loves the show. It’s really not worth the discussion. I just wanted to say it, in case someone reading this thread is glad not to be alone in being disgusted. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/75 "2013-04-21T14:50:12Z")
There are far more depictions of murder in our media than rape, going back to the origins of human culture, including the oldest known stories and myths. Does that make us a murder culture? And, yes, of course, the women have no power except for their sexuality. That’s part of the point in de-romanticizing fantasy settings. That world of knights and jousting that everyone wishes they were in? If you were a woman (among other things), you wouldn’t enjoy it. However, it also depicts some women striving to get beyond that, particularly Arya Stark, Catelyn Stark, Cersei Lannister, Asha/Yara Greyjoy, Arianne Martell, the Sand Snakes, Osha, Val, Ygritte and the other Spearwives and Wildling (Free Folk) women, Daenerys Targaryen, Maege and Dacey Mormont, Brienne of Tarth … They’re all struggling in their own ways to take control of their destinies and not be subject to their limited roles in society, their restrictions on choice, and the victims of their own sexuality. Even the prostitutes and the madames, like Ros and Shea, do their best to get some kind of control over their lives. They rarely succeed, true. But that’s the reality of it. And women aren’t the only ones who are suffering. All kinds of people suffer because of the way society is structured. It’s a deeply sick society, and its trappings of romance and glamor hide the teeming suffering and violence underneath. And only a few centuries ago, this was OUR society, one that we look back on with nostalgia. Given that, not all the depictions of sexuality on the show are depictions of abuse of women. Some of them are simply two people giving pleasure to each other. Tyrion isn’t a rapist. His whores like him. What is a knight? What is a king? A murderer, a thief, a rapist, a torturer. Who suffers? Who is trying to change it? Can it be changed? That’s what this story is about. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/76 "2013-04-21T15:00:18Z")
Mirri Maz Duur took devastating vengeance for murder, theft, and rape. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/77 "2013-04-21T15:24:11Z")
I ask because I don’t understand how you have concluded that rape scenes appear often, let alone represent a primary theme of the show. Perhaps you fled too quickly to even understand what was happening in some cases? There is, for example, a scene of somewhat rough consensual sex between a married couple; she doesn’t enjoy it, but they later come to be tender lovers. There is a _thwarted_ rape, in which nothing sexually explicit appears, and the would-be rapists are killed. There is a scene of unaffectionate sexual use of a woman, but she happens to love it, and in any case it’s relevant to the (unflattering) characterization of the man. Then of course there are sex scenes of varying explication and vigor, between actual lovers, or involving prostitutes. These may be for viewers’ pleasure, but they are not rapes. Perhaps you really just object to sex itself, as a component of fiction’s plot development or characterization, or feel that any explicit depiction is tantamount to pornography? That’s fine; you don’t have to watch. But it’s a long way from _rape for visual pleasure_ as raison d’etre of the show. Your description is unfair to the creators and audience alike. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/78 "2013-04-21T15:37:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Absolutely. I don’t need to \*like \*any of the characters. This pretty much. While I have some bitches with the central construct of the GOT world (see below) and the snail like pace in the later books, his handling of characters and letting them do stupid human things vs noble things is a lot more real than most S&S fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/79 "2013-04-21T17:09:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > This pretty much. While I have some bitches with the central construct of the GOT world (see below) and the snail like pace in the later books, his handling of characters and letting them do stupid human things vs noble things is a lot more real than most S&S fantasy. This may hit on the core problem: the show is too real, to the point of being like reality tv. You’re not there to see what happens, you’re there for the spectacle that comes from watching a bunch of damaged people fuck-up their lives right in front of you. You have no expectations they’ll accomplish anything - heck, you’d be _shocked_ if any of them accomplished anything. I started the books thinking I’d be reading an epic tale, and stopped when I realized I was reading “The Real Housewives of Atlanta” mixed with “Survivor” and “The Apprentice,” set in a fantasy world. When I want a reminder how stupid people are, I go clubbing - I don’t need GRRM’s talents for that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028/80 "2013-04-21T17:17:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nope - his treatment of Tyrion is abominable, and he deserves whatever he gets for overlooking his best son, for something that wasn’t his fault (I mean, seriously, this is a Medieval kingdom, women must die in childbirth Isn’t it also that that the Lannisters pride themselves on their physical fitness and beauty, and Tyrion is a deformed, ugly, dwarf? You know, not only did he kill his mother, he’s also obviously been cursed by the Seven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-i-hate-game-of-thrones/656028.md?page=5)