I read the first book seven or eight years ago. It started off well, but got progressively worse. By the time I was midway through the second one, I was finding Martin’s writing and plotting insufferable, and decided it wasn’t worth it. Subsequent events have made me feel pretty good about that decision. I keep hearing good things about the first season of the series too, but think I will stay away.
Most people are shitheads, especially to people they don’t know and/or people they consider themselves superior to.
That’s what makes ASOIAF so fascinating to me- the characters are REAL. They’re greedy, venal, stupid, smart, ignorant, willful, patient, etc… I suspect it’s probably a better portrayal of how things would work than any other that I’ve read that was set in a similar setting.
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I would say that it pretty clear in the series that holding power is fragile regardless of the people holding it.
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The people holding power are stupid, because, in general, people really are stupid.
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Nobody in this series rules the entire planet. No one actually knows what the entire planet consists of.
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There are plenty of more places in this world, but given the scope of the story and technological and scientific limitations of the people in the story, they’re not going to be able to know about the entire world, but nevertheless a significant chunk of it. And the TV series, I’m guessing, will for practical reasons explore less of the world than the books do.
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One might argue that a huge proportion of the history of humanity amounts to “a bunch of really nasty people trying to kill each other.” And that would be one of a few of the bigger themes of the series. I see this story as a deconstruction of the fantasy genre – the world of knights and ladies and dragons and castles and power by inheritance or conquest was a brutal, stupid world in which a lot of people suffered. That’s another big theme. I’m sure others can chip in with their views of overarching themes.
I think you may be giving Martin too much credit for having an overarching vision. I think he had a handful of nifty ideas early on, none of which were particularly “epic” or “high fantasy” (those are measures of theme, not of how much magic is imagined), and has been only meandering since.
I find it difficult to argue with you there. Didn’t we spend an ungodly amount of time in A Feast for Crows following an wandering preacher around while he ate oranges?
Right. These are decidedly “low,” anti-epic themes. The presence of dragons or a weird cosmology is less relevant to the nature of the story than these choices.
To that end, I’d like to see more of the impact of the aristocrats’ scheming and warring from the perspective of front-and-center commoner characters.
Grude: I find nothing absurd about a mob of commoners nearly killiing a king and queen. Look up Wat Tyler and the Peasant’s Revolt. Remember that John of Gaunt had to flee by barge or die when a London mob burned down his palace.
Wasn’t that the plot to Band of Brothers?
And don’t forget John of Galt who had to hide in Colorado!
4 - Swords
5 - Dragons
6 - Zombiesicles
For me the best description about GoT is that first and foremost it’s about the throne. I was pissed with the Ned story line; and almost stopped watching. When it was pointed out to me that the story wasn’t about Ned, it’s about the throne it made more sense. There’s are no feel good stories about how a great and powerful leader come to the throne and stays there. It’s about everyone who comes to the throne; some good (I assume) and some bad (as you’ve seen).
OK, they know you well at that restaurant. Still doesn’t explain how you can accuse the Brits who wondered whether you’d like blood/black pudding of being “racists.” Does this mean we’re supposed to ignore most of your stuff?
Of course I’ve seen the show. Think it’s pretty good. Nobody forces me to watch stuff I dislike…
You’re not supposed to ignore my stuff, but don’t take it as an official complaint to the United Nations commission on human rights, it was a bitch about an annoyance encountered at restaurants. The British place was obviously not racism, more like nationalism, but it was close enough to include.
I actually do like GOT some, if I hated the whole thing why bother posting? Its a well produced show with a serious lack of interesting characters, I don’t even need them likeable.
I thought that one of Martin’s points–along with ripping off the Wars of the Roses–was to show just how terrible life could be, whether noble or commoner. I think we all intellectually know that, but sometimes it hits home better as a book or movie or TV show. You’ve got:
- Wonderful examples of why hereditary rule can be a very bad idea
- The effect of the fighting of the nobles on the commoners and the kingdom
- Complete breakdown of social order as brigandage and mercenaries proliferate
Cut it down to 2 to 3 hours, put it in mostly iambic pentameter, add some memorable lines, and you’ve got most of Shakespeare’s histories and some of the tragedies.
That’s my biggest issue with the show. It’s meandering and glacial in its pacing. Brevity is the soul of wit, after all, and brevity doesn’t seem to exist in that world.
Well, asterion apparently has summarized the themes quite succinctly.
20 points for Gryffindor.
Oh wait… wrong universe.
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One of the reasons why my dear wife and I enjoyed these books was because after years of epic high fantasy, we found something that actually ‘felt’ real. These are humans in a human world. They act much as we would in the same environment. The way they interact with such a rich and weird past that has left behind artifacts they are incapable of mastering is rather remarkable. Just the fact that The Wall exists and yet is utterly without any technology beyond early Iron Age is very odd. Do we know who created this massive object? Was it the Andals or the First Men or some other people? In the book, The Wall is 700 feet high and 300 miles long. Can you imagine the technology/magic required to create such an artifact? It is surely beyond our (Earth 21st Century) technology to manufacture.
But that is just background. The foreground is a retelling of many dynastic struggles throughout history, notably the War of the Roses. There are very few heroes in this saga and that does bother people. But, heroes are not that common. In the end, we are all just humans.
I doubt that at all; the main considerations would be a good foundation, and a method to have enough energy and water to make enough blocks to build the wall, or enough natural ice to cut and build the wall from.
It’s kind of like the Pyramids, but built from ice and in the far north. If the 2500 BCE Egyptians could do it with stone (the Great Pyramid is pushing 500 ft tall), then surely it can be done today with ice.
Well you obviously don’t really understand what life was like in medieval times, or that the King had a certain amount of authority, but that what the peasants really wanted was just to be sheltered clothed and fed.
Besides, the TV show is while it’s very good an adapation; You should read the books to get the full scope of the world.
See? I think it’s too short, other people think it’s too long. Typical.
(There are witty moments… but the show’s not about snap, and would be much less interesting if it tried.)
GoT is one of my favorite shows, but I can sort of see where **grude **is comming from. Each season feels like it’s building up to an epic “Battle of the Pelennor Fields” that never happens. There is almost a danger that by the time winter comes, we could care less if Princess Dragontitties shows up with her pets to prevent the White Walkers from sweeping down and killing every medieval asshole in Westeros.
Although in many ways it’s a lot more interesting than the typical “let all the kingdoms of the realm unite against our common foe!” epic fantasy trope.
I thought it should be clear. Because if you don’t have power, you are succeptable to getting your head cut off, raped , shipped off somewhere, or otherwise abused or killed by those who do have it.
I think it could be done using modern technology. There just isn’t any point to building a Three Gorges Dam 300 miles long out of ice.