# God in a pill & should/could the US continue to ban psilocybin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127 "2007-01-30T16:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/21 "2007-01-30T22:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=Random] Another response to _Flores_ was the Religious Land Use & Institutionalized Person Act (“RLUIPA”) , passed by Congress in 2000. RLUIPA also sought to impose the “compelling interest” standard, but differs from RFRA in two ways. It is limited to laws that impair land uses and the activities of prisoners, and it uses the Commerce Clause as an additional basis for Congress’ authority to act. Court challenges to RLUIPA’s constitutionality have had mixed results. [/QUOTE] Going from memory here, but didn’t the Fourth Circuit find Congress’ authority to regulate prison provisions could be upheld under Congress’s Spending Clause power? And didn’t the opinion focus on whether damages could be had against the state, and nix that idea under the Eleventh Amendment? Or am I misremembering? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/22 "2007-01-30T22:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Me neither. Ran into one of His disciples, though. He had a lampshade on his head and was swinging a curtain rod. That was the day I lost my faith. [/QUOTE] That may have been my ex. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/23 "2007-01-30T23:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] You’re talking about the same group of people (or there’s a big overlap) who think that a single puff of anything will drive you to heroin use and death. [/QUOTE] I’m also talking about the people who think atheism is _worse_ than death; the sort of people who talk about how they’d prefer their own children die rather than become atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/24 "2007-01-30T23:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Going from memory here, but didn’t the Fourth Circuit find Congress’ authority to regulate prison provisions could be upheld under Congress’s Spending Clause power? And didn’t the opinion focus on whether damages could be had against the state, and nix that idea under the Eleventh Amendment? Or am I misremembering? [/QUOTE] No, you have it pretty much right, except that I wouldn’t say that the opinion _focused_ on the damages issue. (It certainly was part of the holding, and the result was in favor of the state on that issue, as you say, but the remainder of the opinion favored the inmate, rejecting the state’s various Constitutional attacks on RLIUPA.) So, as I read it (albeit quickly), the inmate may get an injunctive order allowing his religious practice under RLIUPA, but not damages. (At least in the Fourth Circuit) ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/25 "2007-01-30T23:23:33Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I tried it once. I didn’t meet god, though. [/QUOTE] I’m not looking to meet God. Although if I did, it wouldn’t be so bad. I just think it would be interesting. I suspect that once would be enough for me, I’m just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/26 "2007-01-30T23:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Going from memory here, but didn’t the Fourth Circuit find Congress’ authority to regulate prison provisions could be upheld under Congress’s Spending Clause power? [/QUOTE] Ahh, I missed your implication here. Congress cited the Commerce Clause **and** the Spending Clause as alternative bases for its authority to enact RLUIPA. _Madison_ (the Fourth Circuit case) found it unnecessary to address the Commerce Clause issue, given its Spending Clause holding. Other cases have addressed the Commerce Clause issue. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/27 "2007-01-31T00:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Please be aware that much of the stuff sold as psilocybin is LSD. [/QUOTE] I question the validity of this statement. Most of the psilocybin I’ve seen is distributed in the form of dried mushrooms. The only exception is the fresh form found in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. I do agree with the “spiritual” feelings attributed to hallucinogens. I am though, “athier” than most. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/28 "2007-01-31T00:39:15Z")
[QUOTE=SiXSwordS] And while I do not agree with the criminalization of psilocybin, I’ve had similar discussions to this with advocates of the “pathway to spiritual awakening” tack and I can’t say I have ever been convinced. The research does very little to change my position. I do not see a single “spiritual” experience as a “shortcut” to G-d. ( I Don’t believe in any shortcut to spirituality.) I also think that, with more experience using the drug, people would soon find that their rating of the significance of their experience would drop significantly. [/QUOTE] Well, anecdotes are not data, etc, but recently I had an (entirely legal) experience with a powerful hallucinogenic drug, and literally overnight I went from being a completely nonspiritual atheist to being a very spiritual person who believes in a higher universal consciousness. This was about 4 months ago, I took it only once, and I had no previous experience with psychedelics. It was a major, major life-changing paradigm shift for me. I feel incredibly frustrated that these healing sacred instruments carry the same legal penalty as destructive, unenlightening, escapist substances like meth. I will say however that not everyone responds the same to these substances. Some people get no sacred experience out of it, and some people get horrific experiences. I would like to see psychedelics down-scheduled so they could be prescribed by an MD, and administered by some sort of credentialed paraprofessional, likesay the psychological equivalent of a midwife, licensed to administer psychedelics in safe conditions with adequate medical support. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/29 "2007-01-31T00:40:03Z")
How exactly does this stuff differ in its effects from LSD? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/30 "2007-01-31T00:50:48Z")
I know next to nothing about mushrooms or LSD. But if there were a non toxic, non-addictive substance that allowed the brain to experience spiritual “senses” similar to what Persinger’s machine does, then I don’t think it’s the government’s business to interfere. Why should they? Why needlessly limit our brains from fully functioning? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/31 "2007-01-31T01:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] How exactly does this stuff differ in its effects from LSD? [/QUOTE] Duration, for one thing. Typically a 3-4 hour trip, while LSD can last 6-10 hours or more and can make it extremely difficult to sleep afterward. I suspect the shorter duration makes it appealing as a therapeutic aid, and the fact that (judging from my own long past, youthful experience) psilocybin leaves no lingering residual effects or “hangover” when it wears off, unlike LSD. There are some qualitative differences as well. I’ve heard many people describe the hallucinations and visual patterning of psilocybin to be more “organic” than those of LSD, but it’s a difficult concept to understand without firsthand experience. Nausea seems to be a more common side-effect with psilocybin, especially in higher doses. I’ve experimented with both in the past, but not for many years. Although I enjoyed it, I’m not really interested in ever using LSD again. I probably would do mushrooms again, though, if a suitable opportunity presented itself. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/32 "2007-01-31T01:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That depends on whether or not you consider a “life changing mystical experience” a good or bad side effect. I’ve heard about this and similar religion inducing drugs for years, and have always been surprised that the religious community hasn’t gone for it in a big way. If it does catch on, I wouldn’t be surprised to see millions of parents giving it to their children to save them from the scourge of atheism. [/QUOTE] Organized religion is more vulnerable to mysticism and personal revelation than it is to atheism. Organized religion depends on a series of revealed truths which it dispenses to the people in the form of a holy text or texts, and interpretations of said text. Mysticism allows people to find God on their own, dispensing with the middleman. “The Holy book of Krang say we must slay the unbeliever.” “Yeah, well, the thing is, I talked to Krang last night, and he’s actually pretty cool with the unbeliever not being slain. In fact he says you’re a pompous power-mad ass, and all we really have to do is be nice to each other.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/33 "2007-01-31T01:31:18Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] I’ve experimented with both in the past, but not for many years. Although I enjoyed it, I’m not really interested in ever using LSD again. I probably would do mushrooms again, though, if a suitable opportunity presented itself. [/QUOTE] Do you just eat the mushroom, or boil it in a tea, or what? Is the trip anything like [_Altered States?_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/) (Or was that peyote or mescaline?) ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/34 "2007-01-31T01:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Me neither. Ran into one of His disciples, though. He had a lampshade on his head and was swinging a curtain rod. That was the day I lost my faith. [/QUOTE] … actual tears of laughter… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/35 "2007-01-31T01:47:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Do you just eat the mushroom, or boil it in a tea, or what? [/QUOTE] Eating is probably more common though some people prepare a tea. Probably we shouldn’t diverge too far into the technicals as it is frowned upon here, but Erowid has a lot of information concerning what you’ve asked: > **[Erowid Psilocybin Mushroom (Magic Mushrooms) Vault](https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms.shtml)** > > Information about Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms including basics, effects, dosage, history, legal status, photos, research, media coverage, and links to other resources. > **[Mushrooms (also Magic Mushrooms; Psilocybin-containing Fungi) : Erowid Exp:...](https://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Mushrooms.shtml)** > > A categorized index of first-person experiences with Mushrooms ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/36 "2007-01-31T04:11:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Is the trip anything like [_Altered States?_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080360/) (Or was that peyote or mescaline?) [/QUOTE] Hardly. It’s been a while since I saw the movie, but I recall the drug they portrayed being something like ayuhuasca—and their portrayal of the “trip” as something like a bad surrealist student film. At any rate, neither LSD nor psilocybin transforms the user into a mutant protohuman who changes color when he bangs his fist against the wall. (Or at least the stuff I got didn’t.) Except possibly in very high doses, neither drug produces what I would call “true” open-eye hallucinations; i.e., seeing fully formed objects, people, places that aren’t there. Your perceptions are certainly distorted—colors and hues can shift and strobe, stable surfaces may give an illusion of movement, like walls or trees “breathing” in and out, and shadows flutter and sway, especially in the peripheral vision. Patterns, such as carpet, the woodgrain of a desk, or plaid fabric on a sofa, become fascinatingly, intensely intricate, as though you are seeing them for the first time. Depth and size perception can be profoundly affected, so that gazing down at your feet, you may sense that you’re hundreds of feet tall, then a moment later as though your face were inches from the floor. In a high enough dose, mushrooms (and allegedly also LSD, although I never experienced it) can produce an effect referred to as “ego loss” or “ego death,” where reality essentially disintegrates along with the barrier between self and surroundings. Some people find this state useful and actively seek it out, but I found it to be quite terrifying on the one occasion when I, ignorant and inexperienced, took a large dose of mushrooms while alone. If that was my introduction to a higher, universal consciousness, then that consciousness promises confusion, chaos, and abject terror, and is nothing I’m anxious to regroup with. But as with most thing spiritual, your mileage is likely to vary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/37 "2007-01-31T04:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] At any rate, neither LSD nor psilocybin transforms the user into a mutant protohuman who changes color when he bangs his fist against the wall. (Or at least the stuff I got didn’t.) [/quote] ☹ Don’t suppose you know of any drug that does? [QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Depth and size perception can be profoundly affected, so that gazing down at your feet, you may sense that you’re hundreds of feet tall, then a moment later as though your face were inches from the floor. [/QUOTE] [jefferson airplane] Go ask Alice When she’s ten feet tall . . . [/ja] ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/38 "2007-01-31T05:21:19Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Please be aware that much of the stuff sold as psilocybin is LSD. [/QUOTE] If this were true (which I very highly doubt), it would be the first time that the drug war resulted in an upgrade rather than a rip-off. > [@Vinyl Turnip](#): > > Except possibly in very high doses, neither drug produces what I would call “true” open-eye hallucinations; i.e., seeing fully formed objects, people, places that aren’t there. I thought the same, as well. As it turned out, listening to the Art of Fugue can compensate for the lack of dosing. Due to a technicality, these mushrooms have been legally available in the Netherlands for more than a decade now. And without giving any hints, among the scheduled substances, these are actually the easiest to procure in the US. As for ayahuasca, the case will likely resolve in the favor of the government. Mostly because of drug prohibition being treated uncritically as a ‘compelling governmental interest’. I remember reading a summary alongwith excerpts from the UDV case, where I was distinctly surprised by a comment where the judges agreed with the government’s assessment that DMT (the active chemical in ayahuasca brew) was “exceptionally dangerous” despite no third-party scientific assessments. Never mind that the practice of ayahuasca as religious sacrament has been legal in Brazil since the late 80s; that there are about 10,000+ people in 3 organizations who consume the brew every other Saturday, and the scientific [studies](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8596116) conducted on subjects among this [cohort](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=17207120) show no [notable](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16149324) detrimental effects. This sort of a political-moral ethos which seems to pervade the judiciary as well doesn’t bode well for UDV in terms of the ultimate result. > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I do not see a single “spiritual” experience as a “shortcut” to G-d. ( I Don’t believe in any shortcut to spirituality.) You need to know the true way in order to recognize ‘shortcuts’. I just say, to each his own. > [@](#): > > I also think that, with more experience using the drug, people would soon find that their rating of the significance of their experience would drop significantly. You misunderstand how these experiences are supposed to help. They alter your journey rather than deposit you to a destination. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/39 "2007-01-31T11:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] If it does catch on, I wouldn’t be surprised to see millions of parents giving it to their children to save them from the scourge of atheism. [/QUOTE] Didn’t work here, sorry! Good fun though. ‘Profound’… check. ‘Religious’… er, no. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127/40 "2007-01-31T11:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=Khadaji] I’m not looking to meet God. Although if I did, it wouldn’t be so bad. I just think it would be interesting. I suspect that once would be enough for me, I’m just curious. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t looking for god either. It is very interesting. I did psychedelics a number of times, though not as often as some of my peers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-in-a-pill-should-could-the-us-continue-to-ban-psilocybin/390127.md?page=3)