# God incarnated as a fish: Jewish miracle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699 "2003-03-16T02:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/1 "2003-03-16T02:22:17Z")
[It seems that some Jews in New York believe that God has spoken through a twenty pound carp.](http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,915125,00.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle. > Many of the 7,000-member Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, 30 miles north of Manhattan, believe God has revealed himself in fish form. > > According to two fish-cutters at the New Square Fish Market, the carp was about to be slaughtered and made into gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner when it suddenly began shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew. > > ``` > <snip> > > ``` > > Nivelo, a Gentile who does not understand Hebrew, was so shocked at the sight of a fish talking in any language that he fell over. He ran into the front of the store screaming: ‘It’s the Devil! The Devil is here!’ Then the shop owner heard it shouting warnings and commands too. > > ‘It said “Tzaruch shemirah” and “Hasof bah”,’ he told the New York Times, ‘which essentially means that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near.’ > > The animated carp commanded Rosen to pray and study the Torah. Rosen tried to kill the fish but injured himself. It was finally butchered by Nivelo and sold. > > ``` > <snip> > > ``` > > Some say they fear the born-again President Bush believes he is preparing the world for the Second Coming of Christ, and war in Iraq is just the opening salvo in the battle of Armageddon.\*\* The most amazing thing to me is that they killed the fish and sold it. So anyway, is it possible that this was a real miracle? Could God be warning us about the war? If you believe in Christian miracles, why not a Jewish one? What does God taste like with tartar sauce? All opinion are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/2 "2003-03-16T02:31:11Z")
God made an oopsie. He meant for the fish to be in Utah at the time so he could warn Emanuel that his ass was about to get 'rested. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/3 "2003-03-16T02:38:59Z")
Well… in Hebrew, the word “dog” means fish, and in English, dog is God spelled backwards, so… um… where was I? ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/4 "2003-03-16T03:05:34Z")
## Quote: Diogenes the Cynic ## Some say they fear the born-again President Bush believes he is preparing the world for the Second Coming of Christ, and war in Iraq is just the opening salvo in the battle of Armageddon. Some say Dub yuh: Was so mean she shot a man just for snoring. Some say Dub yuh: Is going to declare war on Paul Bunion. Some say Dub yuh: Ate the big steak at the big Texan steakranch Some say Dub yuh: Is crazy out of one eye. Some say Dub yuh: Chewed his way threw the worlds biggest ball of twine Some say Dub yuh: Wants to put Saddams dead face skin over his own face then go out in his backyard and fire his shotgun in the air. The fish said, "Who the fuck would want to eat a carp.’. ---
**Author:** ![AvidReader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@AvidReader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AvidReader)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/5 "2003-03-16T03:17:14Z")
\*\* Oh, how different the last 2000 years of human history would have been if Jesus would have had the wherewithal to come as a _Carp_!!! ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/6 "2003-03-16T03:21:26Z")
Hey, don’t filet the messenger. ::rimshot:: I want to know who had the balls to eat the fish. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/7 "2003-03-16T03:40:57Z")
A carp? Speaking Hebrew? I’d have thought the God of Israel would have preferred a goliath grouper, at least. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/8 "2003-03-16T03:46:45Z")
When I saw this thread, I said “Ol’ **Dio** ’s screwing around again.” Then I saw it on Drudge… So, they cut it up and sold it. That did _not_ happen. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/9 "2003-03-16T03:57:10Z")
Just to clarify a point there, **Beaten Man** …that quote starting “Some say…” is from the NYT article, not **Diogenes**. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/10 "2003-03-16T04:28:01Z")
The idea that God would be incarnated as a fish (or “revealed in fish form”) is against all Jewish doctrine, and it is inconceivable that anyone in the Skverer community - or any other part of the Jewish community - would believe such a thing. It is also factually untrue. I’ve been hearing about this story for weeks and weeks, including all sorts of people who spoke to the guys involved or who are related to them etc. etc., and have never heard of such a rediculous possiblity being suggested. The spirit that was supposedly attached to the fish, according to ALL versions I’ve heard, was neither God nor the “troubled soul of a revered community elder”. It was the spirit of a recently deceased guy in Toronto named Gestetner. Rosen (the fish guy) supposedly knew him somewhat because Gestetner, who was a rich guy with no children, ocasionally purchased fish for free distribution to the poor when he visited town. Whatever. No reason not to cut the fish up like any other fish. Assuming that the guy’s soul got attached to this fish, it was his destiny to be a fish, like any other fish. Nothing holy about it at all. Most versions that I heard (including an interview with the fish guy himself) did not refer to apocalyptic prophesies - rather the fish spoke about needing a cure for its soul. What really happened? Within the Orthodox community opinions vary. I know my parents are skeptical, for example, and I heard that one of the leading Rabbis in America denounced it in a recent speech. Personally, I incline to believe that something did happen. This because it is unlikely that two separate guys, with completely different belief systems and backgrounds would halucinate the same thing. But I don’t about the details and interpretations. Who knows what it means - not me. Makes no difference anyway. All it is is a curiousity, if that. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/11 "2003-03-16T04:41:59Z")
Thankyou for the clarification Duke. You would think the NewYork times would have said, “Reliable sources report the president is such a religious nut he can’t make a rational decision. He sees jesus flying around his head. All because he goes to church on Sunday and says he believes in Christ.” rather than ------ some say. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/12 "2003-03-16T15:41:04Z")
I don’t know, this story seems a little fishy to me… ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/13 "2003-03-16T16:34:53Z")
I’ve been giving this story all the attention and respect that it deserves… which is to say none. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/14 "2003-03-16T17:17:00Z")
Oh come on, **Izzy** and **Zev** , you guys are taking all the fun out of it. How many talking fish stories do you see in the news these days, especially fish that speak Hebrew? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/15 "2003-03-16T18:38:12Z")
ARCHANGEL-FISH ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/16 "2003-03-16T19:06:31Z")
> **[Miracle? Dream? Prank? Fish Talks, Town Buzzes (Published 2003)](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/nyregion/miracle-dream-prank-fish-talks-town-buzzes.html)** > > Members of Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, NY, and Jews around world are abuzz over tale about talking fish; fish cutters Zalmen Rosen, member of sect, and his co-worker Luis Nivelo, Ecuadorean immigrant, say 20-pound carp about to be... Here is a more detailed story in the NYT. It confirms that many people think it was God revealing himself. “This because it is unlikely that two separate guys, with completely different belief systems and backgrounds would halucinate the same thing” The two guys could just be playing a prank. That seems the most likely explanation. Anyway an amusing story.😃 ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/17 "2003-03-16T20:00:25Z")
ASCII artist’s impression of said Hebrew-speaking fish: ;j[[[[\>\< ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/18 "2003-03-16T20:03:08Z")
—It confirms that many people think it was God revealing himself.— Well, and one vote for the Debil’ > **[Word is made flesh as God reveals himself... as a fish](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/16/usa.theobserver)** > > An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped by what many believe is a modern miracle - a 20lb carp that was heard shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![AvidReader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@AvidReader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AvidReader)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/19 "2003-03-16T20:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > What really happened? Within the Orthodox community opinions vary. I know my parents are skeptical, for example, and I heard that one of the leading Rabbis in America denounced it in a recent speech. Personally, I incline to believe that something did happen. This because it is unlikely that two separate guys, with completely different belief systems and backgrounds would halucinate the same thing. But I don’t about the details and interpretations. Who knows what it means - not me. Makes no difference anyway. All it is is a curiousity, if that. \*\* Sounds _fishy_ to me…😃 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699/20 "2003-03-16T20:51:27Z")
I think it’s sheer jealousy. The Catholics, after all, get the face of the Virgin Mary appearing in potato chips and leaky ceilings. These guys just want to keep up with the O’Malleys. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-incarnated-as-a-fish-jewish-miracle/161699.md?page=2)