# God is: a libertarian? An economic populist? Something else? None of the above? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469 "2000-02-10T21:32:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/1 "2000-02-10T21:32:00Z")
On [this](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001187-2.html) thread, Lib said: > [@](#): > > look at Jesus. He was the consumate Libertarian. To which I responded: > [@](#): > > I find a strong streak of economic populism in the Bible. So, does the Christian God, the God of the Bible, have a political philosophy? And if so, what is it? Actually, I don’t believe God can be said to belong to any earthly political philosophy: “For so as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:9) Still, we might be able to find some evidence in the Bible concerning the character of God, and that evidence might have some political implications. Let’s see what we can find out, if we’re brave (or foolhardy) enough to investigate this question. And let’s be polite as possible, OK? Political debates can get heated, and so can religious debates. This is the intersection of those two; things are gonna get touchy. So let’s try to hold onto both our intellectual integrity and our mutual respect. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/2 "2000-02-10T21:37:00Z")
RT: God bless you for having the balls to post this topic. Thank you very much. 🙂 Politics, of course isn’t just “the art or science of government” (Merriam-Webster), but also " the total complex of relations between people living in society". As you’ve noted, Jesus lived His life very libertarianly. He could have, with a wave of His hand, brought all men for all time into immediate submission to His will by simply redesigning His own paradigm. But He didn’t. Instead, He seeks volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/3 "2000-02-10T21:38:00Z")
I neglected to credit Merriam-Webster for the second definition of politics that I gave above. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/4 "2000-02-10T21:40:00Z")
The God of the Bible is clearly a despot. All laws come from him. All punishment and reward are ultimately his to decide as well. The best analogies of his style of government here on Earth are less than flattering. * * * Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/5 "2000-02-10T21:42:00Z")
Whatever kind of political _philosophy_ is expounded in the Bible, the only political _system_ I see in either the Old or the New Testaments is plain old-fashioned monarchy. Kings and lords, rulers and servants, masters and slaves, seem to be recurring themes in both Testaments; nowhere do I see any mention of, say, the Representative Democracy of the old Roman Senate or the Direct Democracy of Hellenic Greece. Which is why it always amuses me when Pat Buchanan or one of his ilk claims that the U.S. government is founded on Christian principles. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/6 "2000-02-10T21:43:00Z")
Well, there are at least two Gods in the Bible, the one of the Old Testament, and the one of the New. The God of the old testament was something of a fascist - the New something of a socialist-anarchist. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/7 "2000-02-10T21:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > As you’ve noted, Jesus lived His life very libertarianly. Whoa, not so fast! I only noted that you _said_ that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/8 "2000-02-10T21:50:00Z")
Cooper: Oh, yeah. Jesus was a real socialist. You must be refering to Ebeneezer 2:2, when He sent His army out to collect His taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/9 "2000-02-10T21:59:00Z")
I think we may need to distinguish between God’s relationship to us and the relationship God expects us to have with each other. I think the 2nd concept is a more interesting discussion since it has a bearing on the American election year politics. 1 Samuel 8, the Israelites wanted a king and in verse 7, God says (NAS) “… Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but have rejected me …” Samuel was the last judge before Israel’s monarchy was established. When the children of Israel were persecuted before the advent of monarchism, God would raise up a judge to rectify the situation (Samson, Deborah, Othniel, etc.). If I had to guess at what life was like after Joshua and before Saul, I would guess it would be fairly libertarian. That is, everyone had land - the promised land was divided among the tribes, clans, and families. An agrarian lifestyle was perpetuated via inheritance. If there were troubles between individuals, “take it to duh judge.” The various texts defining the Cities of Refuge suggests (to me, YMMV) that the concept of police officers was somewhat foreign (literally, HA!). HOWEVER, the prophets known as the minor prophets roundly & soundly condemned social injustices and prophesied doom for their failure. Both the OT and Paul’s letters to the church suggest that it is not proper to ignore social issues (poverty, abuse of orphans and widows, etc.). My perception is that libertarians don’t like social programs, or at the minimum suggest that it shouldn’t be in the hands of the government. Here, I respectfully disagree. A government seems to be the most effective way of administering ordinances of social well-being in a society vastly more complicated than an agrarian one. ## Tinker Is it supper time yet? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/10 "2000-02-10T22:13:00Z")
Tinker: What we don’t like, and what I am sure you are inadvertently missing, is the seizure of property by threat of force from peaceful honest people. When did Jesus **ever** do this? (“Huh?” you might say. Keep in mind how you get your loot for your social programs. You don’t pay your taxes, you go to jail. That ain’t how charity works.) ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/11 "2000-02-10T22:20:00Z")
As far as I can tell, God changed from a fascist dictator (OT) to a fickle one (NT). Jesus was just an anarchist, he fought every government he was under (Ceasar, the Jewish people). * * * I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail. ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/12 "2000-02-10T22:22:00Z")
lesse here, Jesus said “Render unto Caeser what is Caeser and unto God what is God’s”. IE, if the government wants taxes - pay it. Jesus was neither anti-tax nor pro-rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/13 "2000-02-10T22:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What we don’t like, and what I am sure you are inadvertently missing, is the seizure of property by threat of force from peaceful honest people. > > When did Jesus ever do this? Lib, are you going to make me bring up the fig tree and the pigs again?? * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/14 "2000-02-10T22:29:00Z")
Tinker: I’m afraid your IE is discombobulated. The Pharasees asked Jesus the kind of loaded question that people ask me about libertarianism. Their intention was to trick him into saying that Jews should pay taxes to Rome. But rather than say, “if the government wants taxes - pay it,” He asked them whose image was on their coin? Do you know why He asked them that? Because they weren’t supposed to be carrying around graven images of Roman gods. That’s why. It is a murder of the lesson to implicate Jesus as an advocate of tyranny. His point was not what they owed Rome, but what they owed God. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/15 "2000-02-10T22:30:00Z")
Spiritus: 😃 I don’t know, but if you do, it’ll be a lot quicker to answer this time! 🙂 [click… drag… right click… copy… click… right click… paste] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/16 "2000-02-10T22:41:00Z")
Let’s start off with this familiar passage from Exodus 20: > [@](#): > > 8: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. > 9: Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; > 10: but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; > 11: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Possibly history’s first labor law. Not only can’t _you_ work on the Sabbath; neither can your hired help, your slaves, or even your _livestock_. No matter how low your standing in society, you could only be worked for 72 hours a week, more or less (depending on hours of daylight, since most labor was field labor). Under the guise of a law that applied equally to everybody, who did God primarily protect? Slaves, servants, and others who were otherwise most vulnerable to being worked to death, just to earn enough to stay alive. Good going, God! Next, we come to the following (much less familiar) laws from Deuteronomy 24: > [@](#): > > 10: "When you make your neighbor a loan of any sort, you shall not go into his house to fetch his pledge. > 11: You shall stand outside, and the man to whom you make the loan shall bring the pledge out to you. > 12: And if he is a poor man, you shall not sleep in his pledge; > 13: when the sun goes down, you shall restore to him the pledge that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it shall be righteousness to you before the LORD your God. > 14: "You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brethren or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns; > 15: you shall give him his hire on the day he earns it, before the sun goes down (for he is poor, and sets his heart upon it); lest he cry against you to the LORD, and it be sin in you. > 16: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin. > 17: "You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow’s garment in pledge; > 18: but you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you from there; therefore I command you to do this. > 19: "When you reap your harvest in your field, and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow; that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. > 20: When you beat your olive trees, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow. > 21: When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not glean it afterward; it shall be for the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow. > 22: You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt; therefore I command you to do this. This one’s fun; let’s dive in. vv.10-11 deal with the imbalance of psychological power between one loaning money and the one borrowing it out of necessity. In effect, it says, “Just because you’re in the power position, that doesn’t mean you can just walk into his house to collect your security for the loan. Nope - you respect his house, and wait outside while he brings it to you.” vv.12-13 deal with the fact that, at this time, the security for the loan was likely to be a man’s cloak, which he’d sleep in. They require the person loaning the money to return the security, the cloak, each night, because the poor man needed it for warmth. A similar verse earlier in the chapter > [@](#): > > 6: "No man shall take a mill or an upper millstone in pledge; for he would be taking a life in pledge. conveys the same message. vv.14-15 protects the day laborer from an employer who might be tempted to hold back on paying the help. v.17 makes it clear that widows, orphans, and aliens had a right to justice, as well as those in better circumstances. By way of explaining why, v.18 reminds them that they were descended from slaves, and had been redeemed by the mercy of God; they were not just expected, but _required_, to pass on that same mercy. And, of course, in vv.19-22, God’s law appropriates a portion of the property of landowners for the use of the poor and destitute. And again, I say: good going, God! That’s a start… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/17 "2000-02-10T22:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Libertarian: > Because they weren’t supposed to be carrying around graven images of Roman gods. That’s why. I must admit I never thought of the issue of graven images. Thanks for the brain teaser. Nevertheless, it is tortured hermeneutics (sp?) to suggest that Jesus evaded the question. > [@](#): > > It is a murder of the lesson to implicate Jesus as an advocate of tyranny. I’m sorry, what? Let me ask this question, how should the poor be helped? If we limited government to punishing crimes against society, how would society pick up the slack? ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/18 "2000-02-10T22:43:00Z")
As I recall, Lib, your answer to the pig issue was to use your personal understanding of Jesus to imply a non-scrptural resolution which ameliorated the scripturally evident fact that Jesus coerced some pig farmer out of a whole herd of prime bacon futures. If you recall something else then one of wil have to go digging through the old threads and exercise those advanced mouse skills. If you recall as I do, then I wuld have to say you are guilty of manipulating the evidence to conform to your hypothesis. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/19 "2000-02-10T22:44:00Z")
I should leave the arguing to RTF. Nice job! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469/20 "2000-02-10T22:55:00Z")
Tinker: Maybe looking at the whole passage in its context will help to avoid misconstruing the meaning. * * * The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people. Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" [Notice that this is a yes or no question, and is positively loaded, as their intention was to trap Him. Didn’t you ever wonder why He didn’t simply answer yes or no?] He saw through their **duplicity** and said to them, “Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?” [Zowee! Caught with their pants down! Idolatry is expressly prohibited by their law.] “Caesar’s,” they replied. [Can you image how sheepishly?] He said to them, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” [That is, let the Romans practice idolatry. You should be worshipping God.] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-is-a-libertarian-an-economic-populist-something-else-none-of-the-above/17469.md?page=2)