God is absolutely the largest crutch a grown human will ever lean on. So is Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Muhammed, Allah, the Virgin (yeah right) Mary, etc. And by leaning on Santa as a grown up its when the grown up says, “Santa is watching” to their kid when misbehaving.
No one in today’s world believes in a biblical god. They believe in the IDEA of a god, their own version, their own crutch.
That’s utter nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that. All the prayer and faith in the world won’t save your life when what you need is medical treatment instead. Reality is not subjective, and placebos are not as effective as real solutions. Faith is perfectly capable of getting people killed, or making people kill others.
Actually, I probably shouldn’t have bothered to respond. You really had no point at all You said all the theists you know seek material solutions.
So what? And BTW, there are far more christians that you don’t know.
And you said, flat out, “Christians go see doctors when they’re sick.” You’re wrong. Most do, but millions don’t.
I totally agree, DT. Cultural pluralism and political correctness keep this problem alive and well. I wish we could do away with the ‘free pass’ (from unhindered debate, via social taboo) religion is granted in (American) society.
While I don’t tend to challenge believers unless the subject arises (probably because I’m a coward buckling to the aforementioned ‘free pass’), it really bothers me that this one subject is beyond debate somehow, and that many non-believers pride themselves on having a ‘live and let live’ attitude. I mean, it sounds nice and it IS socially unbumpy. But in the long run it prevents progress, leaving ridiculous untenable beliefs unchallenged to the point where, amazingly, seemingly sane people still believe Bronze Age myths. Then a not insignificant number of this group wants to wield the prejudices supported by these ancient primitive myths, attempting to rewrite our national history and cripple civil rights issues in the name of those myths. All while expecting to let the basis of this harm (belief in ridiculous ancient myths) go unchallenged. It’s messed up.
Depends on the problems.
A lot of problems are much easier to solve when you are thinking positively about them. Believing that a higher power has your back certainly makes some people think much more positively about their problems.
What’s wrong with using a crutch anyway? If someone has a broken leg, would you excoriate them for relying on a crutch? In the eyes of believers, humanity is crippled. And if that’s the case, using a crutch is the most constructive thing to do.
The idea that we are born needing a supernatural crutch is, in itself, crippling. It causes us to rely on dogmatic books and preachers rather than our brains and conscience, when it comes to evaluating the world.
I’m not talking life and death, but abstract concepts like coping mechanisms, etc. If a faith in some sort of god gives people peace of mind, makes them feel protected, makes them feel happy, whether it’s real or not is irrelevant. We debate about reality all the time, and it’s clear that people see it very differently. If you have crippling depression and take a pill that makes you feel better, does it matter if it’s placebo? No. All that matters to you is that you feel better. Our brains are complex, and work in ways we don’t completely understand. People experience unbelievable things from “unreal” things every day.
I’m an atheist, and none of the ideas that religion offers do much of anything for me. However, I’ve abused alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. for the same reasons other people turn to religion. Is being fucked up actually giving me a real sense of peace? Sure, at least in that moment. Is it real or actually positive for me? That’s debatable. And that’s how I see the whole god/crutch comparison.
Not it’s not. It makes it likely that they’ll avoid real solutions, and more likely that they’ll end up making disastrous decisions. Both because they are making their decisions according to a fantasy, and because buying into the fantasy encourages & requires bad decision making. It also tends to make them dangerous to other people.
You know what else is a crutch? Emotions.
I disagree. Even though Christians believe in heaven, I doubt they’re more likely to commit suicide than non-Christians for example.
Because they are taught it’s sinful. They do however do things like vote for bans on same sex marriage because God hates homosexuals, forbid abortions in order to punish women because God has ordained their inferiority, support bombing Muslims out of religious hatred, deliberately neglect research and prevention for AIDS in the hopes it will kill as many homosexuals as possible, disdain the poor because poverty is a sign of God’s disfavor, die because they rely on prayer and faith healing, and beat their children for being atheist or homosexual.
Hitler?
Come on, man, I’m as atheist as anyone and not at all a fan of religion, but what you are describing is the most extreme old-testament version of christianity. I’ve got a hundred or so acquaintances/family members who consider themselves christian, but they don’t have any of the beliefs you just mentioned, nor do they behave like that. They are moderate, democrats, pro-choice, fine with gays, fine with science, etc. My grandma taking comfort in her religion wasn’t dangerous to anyone, and I’d argue that it was the opposite. It probably caused her to be kinder and more giving, and to teach us to be more tolerant than she may have if she hadn’t gone to the quaker church.
I realize this is the Dope and some people are going to say religion=awful, horrible things 100% of the time, but that doesn’t match up with reality and the people I’ve known throughout my life. I rarely defend christians, but I’m not going to sit here and act like they are cartoon bad guys ready to destroy everything that is reasonable in the world.
I’m curious, what would you consider a “real” coping mechanism for sadness, pain, heartache, etc? Perhaps I’m just dysfunctional, but I can’t think of many that wouldn’t be considered unhealthy to someone.
The votes say otherwise. It isn’t some tiny minority that voted against same sex marriage in places like California, or keeps electing homophobes to positions of power.
That is by nature one of the things Christianity does. What they think they are doing doesn’t matter, in reality they are defending and supporting an ideology that is malignant and irrational.
The sympathy of friends? Trying to solve whatever is causing the problem? For that matter, even just trying to ignore the problem is healthier than clutching some evil fantasy like religion.
There are a lot of xtians who vote democrat, so while I do agree there are a lot of right wing crazies out there doing evil things, I also know there are people who call themselves xtian doing good and reasonable things as well.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that you’re in earnest, and that you truly believe you’re giving us theists a pat on the back. But rather than assail you for being patronizing, I’m going to reject your basic premise.
Faith would ONLY be a “crutch” if it were an unalloyed comfort to us at all times. It would only be a crutch if it ofered comfort and the warm fuzzies
But in reality, faith ISN’T always a great comfort. In truth, if you take faith seriously, it can be damn inconvenient. It requires me to think about things I’d often rather not think about, to care about people I’d rather ignore, to be generous when I’d rather be selfish, to forgive when I’d rather hold a grudge.
Faith is not, as you supose, about feeling good. It’s about being good and doing good. Sometimes, when we’re low, faiht can pick us up… but once it does, God is likely to tell us, “Now that you’re up, go DO something.”
You believe that by doing all these things, you will experience eternal happiness. Certainly you wouldn’t say that if there was a magic pill that gave you health and happiness for the rest of your life, but it had a bitter taste, that taking it was a hardship because of that taste, right? And health and happiness for the rest of your life is worth infinitely less than eternal happiness.
Any hardship you endure to do good is in the ultimate hope for an infinite payoff, which negates your argument.
Edit: There’s actually another parallel with that analogy. People believe medicine to be more effective - that is, the placebo effect is stronger - if the medicine tastes unpleasant. I wonder if there’s a similar effect amongst the faithful who experience hardship due to their faith.
This also works under the assumption that people who do not believe in a god do not do these things, that the atheists have not carefully considered their faith and that they are never selfless or forgiving when they’d rather not be. That is a large assumption.