# God: Just kidding, killing is AOK with me. And here's a list of people to whack! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324 "2011-06-29T22:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/61 "2011-06-30T11:35:03Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Would you happen to be able to link or quote a more accurate translation for me? I’d be interested to read it but not enough to learn Hebrew. > > I’ll give it a read. Sounds like my style of stories and the testimonials keep comparing him to Philip Roth who I really enjoyed reading. > > For a longer read of biblical comedic gold I really enjoyed Joseph Heller’s book God Knows. > [God Knows](http://www.amazon.com/God-Knows-Joseph-Heller/dp/0684841258) It’s about the life of King David. Thanks for the note re: Heller. I love that kind of stuff. RE: Translations. Hmm. JPS and similar translations are [online](http://www.mechon-mamre.org/), and my absolute favorite is the [Stone Edition Chumash](http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/ste.html), but that is expensive shit. (So wonderful, though!\* Wow\*. The commentary at the bottom about the history and entomology takes up half the page, and the Hebrew and English scripture take up the other half.) [This site](http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash) offers up some commentary. If you know the names of the Hebrew books, it is helpful to type those in if you are Googling instead of the English ones. They are: Genesis (Bereishis) Exodus (Shemos) Leviticus (Vayikra) Numbers (Bamidbar) Deuteronomy (Devarim) You can always look at the parsha/torah portion of the week to get some more insight and musings. I read it every week just because I like to learn and it is just like the study of literature or law or philosophy or any other field of thought. Weekly Torah Portion at [myjewishlearning.com](http://myjewishlearning.com) is great and [Ki Tetze](http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Weekly_Torah_Portion/kitetze_index.shtml) is what we’re talking about right now. I see a couple of articles on rape and war. You may enjoy [Come and Hear](http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/index.html), but it serves to be problematic if you don’t know what you’re looking for. Hope it helped, though. (: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/62 "2011-06-30T11:40:22Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > My fault, which admittedly may simply be lack of knowledge of the bible is setting out remedies for a rape but not really saying not to rape. **I don’t know of any biblical passages that condemn rape.** It’s not one of the 10 commandments although you can’t covet certain people. Heck, even stealing is in that part but with rape we only really get, take care of her if you rape her and that’s kinda unsettling. It is assumed from Deut 20 and rabbinical commentary that you should stop a man who is raping a woman by killing him. If a man rapes a married woman, you kill him. Not that you agree with it, but I think it is pretty much saying, “Don’t rape!” A woman’s position in Jewish law is very complicated, but it is more simplistic than just viewing women as property. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/63 "2011-06-30T11:45:58Z")
Actually, I really didn’t have a fault at all. I just read the discussion about whether there was any passages commanding rape and when looking them up I found this passage which I now really as absolutely zip to do with the conversation up to that point. Now, I have come up with a fault though that I think is fair. 😉 I’ve got one more. While you defended your kill everybody stance by saying it was 3000 bc your earlier statement that I was replying to was > [@](#): > > If you go to a hostile person, and they do not want to make peace, do you retreat and wait for them to attack you? Or do you plan accordingly? and that’s present tense suggesting you consider that acceptable not that it would have been acceptable 3000 years ago. It sure sounded like you consider it an reasonable response to an enemy nation. I’m willing to accept that this isn’t what you meant but it is what you wrote and you didn’t include your 3000 years ago thing in regards to this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/64 "2011-06-30T11:53:32Z")
Well, hold your horses your extrapolating a lot out of what I said. My basic point is that the sources of many of the major World religions come from a time when soceities were very much different than they were today. These leads people, especially those that heavily base their actions on these sources, to do things which are out of kilter with modern-day social ideals. Now someone else brought a particular example, but you claimed that such an example was extremely unrepresentative, I pointed out that this is not as much of the case as you potrayed it to be. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Even the **current** Rabbinic authority is detested by most Israelis. It isn’t as though they are democratically elected. Yes, broadly speaking the majority of Israelis are secular and resent the influence that religious authorities have on their lives. Of course you are wrong, the Chief Rabbis are elected by an electroal assembly consisting of 80 Rabbis and 70 representatives of the public. > [@](#): > > I don’t deny that racism exists in every single sphere of Israeli and Palestinian society. It doesn’t make everyone a racist, but racism, while not ‘politically correct’, may be more, uh, ‘voiced’ in Israel than it is in the west. > > We have racism here, too. We’re just a bit more sleek about it. I’ve indicated by general distaste of ‘Israel threads’ in the past, this is not an attempt to turn this thread in to one. Comments about the rights and wrongs of Israeli and Palestinian soceities in general are extremely tangential to the point I am trying to make. > [@](#): > > There are xenophobic elements in humanity. It is not of the Jewish religion to preach ‘xenophobia’ of any kind. The absence of such behavior was noted for about 2,000 years. Firstly xenophobia is a fairly universal human trait, no argument there. Secondly this xenophobia by all accounts was fairly prevalent in the bronze age fertile crescent (and beyond), the ancient Israelities were not worse or better than their neighbours in that respect. Thirdly the Jewish religion following the diaspora almost universally existed as a minority religion, within the socities which they lived in they were generally more accepting of outsiders, being regarded as outsiders themselves, though at the same time were fairly insular. Again this is a tangent, like I said I have no wish to apply modern day standards for good or for bad to times when they did not exist. > [@](#): > > Cite? I’d like to see an unbroken chain of xenophobia, please. Since Jews have existed as minorities for centuries, I doubt you can prove that ridiculous echoing of antisemetic frip frappery that Christians have been claiming since Jesus. When did I describe an unbroken chain of xenophobia? I just said that the influence can be traced back from the use of passages to justify this behaviour. > [@](#): > > Islam is by no means less ethnocentric. Christianity isn’t ethnocentric so much as its just Christian-centric, unless of course you are talking about a culture that is dominated by Christianity. > > Your assertion that Judaism is _more_ ethnocentric than the other Abrahamic religions smacks in the face of academe, history, and anyone who has eyes and ears. Being ‘more ethnocentric’ is not a value judgement. Christianity and Islam in the general sense only, are more focused on differences in beliefs far more evangelical than Judaism. Christianity and Islam use much the same sources as Judaism and are equally guilty of the criticisms I levelled at organised religion. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/65 "2011-06-30T11:56:37Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Thanks for the note re: Heller. I love that kind of stuff. > > RE: Translations. Hmm. JPS and similar translations are [online](http://www.mechon-mamre.org/), and my absolute favorite is the [Stone Edition Chumash](http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/ste.html), but that is expensive shit. (So wonderful, though!\* Wow\*. The commentary at the bottom about the history and entomology takes up half the page, and the Hebrew and English scripture take up the other half.) > > [This site](http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash) offers up some commentary. > > If you know the names of the Hebrew books, it is helpful to type those in if you are Googling instead of the English ones. They are: > > Genesis (Bereishis) > Exodus (Shemos) > Leviticus (Vayikra) > Numbers (Bamidbar) > Deuteronomy (Devarim) > > You can always look at the parsha/torah portion of the week to get some more insight and musings. I read it every week just because I like to learn and it is just like the study of literature or law or philosophy or any other field of thought. > > Weekly Torah Portion at [myjewishlearning.com](http://myjewishlearning.com) is great and [Ki Tetze](http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Weekly_Torah_Portion/kitetze_index.shtml) is what we’re talking about right now. I see a couple of articles on rape and war. > > You may enjoy [Come and Hear](http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/index.html), but it serves to be problematic if you don’t know what you’re looking for. > > Hope it helped, though. (: Those are some interesting links that I’ll peruse through. The JPS translation from your first link is pretty much the same as King James interestingly enough. > [@](#): > > 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.] Still, if there are earlier passages or other texts that specify that rape is bad then I have no problem with this text laying out a remedy. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > It is assumed from Deut 20 and rabbinical commentary that you should stop a man who is raping a woman by killing him. If a man rapes a married woman, you kill him. Not that you agree with it, but I think it is pretty much saying, “Don’t rape!” > > A woman’s position in Jewish law is very complicated, but it is more simplistic than just viewing women as property. Hey, agree with capital punishment or not, I agree that it makes a strong statement about how wrong the punishable action is. BTW, did you mean less simplistic in that last line? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/66 "2011-06-30T12:15:24Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > The OT God is a vengeful God, on the whole. The NT God seems to be a lot more mellow. Yeah, nothing says ‘mellow’ to me like having your “son” killed on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/67 "2011-06-30T12:26:15Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I’ve got one more. While you defended your kill everybody stance by saying it was 3000 bc your earlier statement that I was replying to was Put into perspective, really, more so than _defend_. (Though you also have to think about resources and nomadic tribes becoming stationary…still..context.) > [@](#): > > and that’s present tense suggesting you consider that acceptable not that it would have been acceptable 3000 years ago. It sure sounded like you consider it an reasonable response to an enemy nation. I’m willing to accept that this isn’t what you meant but it is what you wrote and you didn’t include your 3000 years ago thing in regards to this issue. I was just pointing out practical warfare. :o > [@These are my own pants](#): > > Well, hold your horses your extrapolating a lot out of what I said. > > My basic point is that the sources of many of the major World religions come from a time when soceities were very much different than they were today. These leads people, especially those that heavily base their actions on these sources, to do things which are out of kilter with modern-day social ideals. > > Now someone else brought a particular example, but you claimed that such an example was extremely unrepresentative, I pointed out that this is not as much of the case as you potrayed it to be. You opined without any cite that Judaism was somehow inherently xenophobic and has been the case for four thousand + years. > [@](#): > > Yes, broadly speaking the majority of Israelis are secular and resent the influence that religious authorities have on their lives. Of course you are wrong, the Chief Rabbis are elected by an electroal assembly consisting of 80 Rabbis and 70 representatives of the public. hahahaha, when the Chief fucking Rabbi of Israel can be Masorti, we’ll talk about democracy. The Rabbinate also has several seats that are permanent, and Israelis do not get a vote. So I am right and you are wrong. (Can I say “neener neener”?) > [@](#): > > When did I describe an unbroken chain of xenophobia? I just said that the influence can be traced back from the use of passages to justify this behaviour. If you are going to trace it back, it suggests a chain. Now if you mean to say, “Some assholes use this to justify their hatred”, well, \*that \*has been going on since the invention of the written word. Also, the sky is blue. > [@](#): > > Being ‘more ethnocentric’ is not a value judgement. Christianity and Islam in the general sense only, are more focused on differences in beliefs far more evangelical than Judaism. Christianity and Islam use much the same sources as Judaism and are equally guilty of the criticisms I levelled at organised religion. If they are equally guilty, how are they less ethnocentric? And excuse me, but labeling anything ethnocentric does seem to be a value judgment. Using demographics, you could argue that over time, Christianity and Islam were/are _more_ ethnocentric, given their respective power. > [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Those are some interesting links that I’ll peruse through. > > The JPS translation from your first link is pretty much the same as King James interestingly enough. Yes, I don’t know if they use the 1917 version or the newer one. I really do prefer Art Scroll and those commentaries, but JPS’s footnotes also tell you more about the words used. > [@](#): > > BTW, did you mean less simplistic in that last line? …yes. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/68 "2011-06-30T12:57:50Z")
The Israelites who authored the Torah were incredibly ethnocentric. Adonai chose them instead of any other culture for no particular reason. They had a mandate to obliterate the Canaanites and take over their land for no reason. The whole book of Joshua is an orgy of ethnic cleansing, and others have pointed out eg the disgusting story where Saul is dumped on for being too lenient to the Amalekites. The rabbis mitigated these stories by inventing bad things the enemies of Israel had done to make them deserve it, which is a sign of progress IMO – “we killed them all because they did bad things” is still awful, but it’s better than “we killed them all because FUCK YES, IN YOUR FACE!!!”. But the cultures that produced the Torah were radically ethnocentric – as was every other culture at the time. What Torah does do is affirm that it is required to love the foreigner in your midst – but it’s talking about assimilated aliens living as Israelites and participating in Israelite religious practice, not ones practicing their own religion. Those ones get speared through the stomach. It is a progressive text for its time and can be a stonkingly beautiful work of literature, which is why I still choose to engage with it, but it is legitimately horrible in many places. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/69 "2011-06-30T13:03:06Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You opined without any cite that Judaism was somehow inherently xenophobic and has been the case for four thousand + years. No you opined something about what I thought. > [@](#): > > hahahaha, when the Chief fucking Rabbi of Israel can be Masorti, we’ll talk about democracy. The Rabbinate also has several seats that are permanent, and Israelis do not get a vote. So I am right and you are wrong. (Can I say “neener neener”?) Is the Orthodox religious monopoly in Israel fair? No. Are they elected by a popular vote of the Israeli public? No. But they are elected. perhaps to use 'democratic 'is unfair and at the very least a stretch as despite the insertion of 70 representatives of the Israel public it’s not really an exercise in people power. But 1) I stated what I meant 2) you don’t become Cheif Rabbi of Israel by being regarded as an extereme fringe element by the religious establishment which is my point that the xenophobice element is not entirely on the extreme fringes as you suggested. > [@](#): > > If you are going to trace it back, it suggests a chain. Now if you mean to say, “Some assholes use this to justify their hatred”, well, \*that \*has been going on since the invention of the written word. let’s taker an unrelated example. Some Evangelical Christians adopt Old Testetament practices justifying them from scripture, often these practices have been disregarded almost completely. Does that suggest an unbroken chain? > [@](#): > > If they are equally guilty, how are they less ethnocentric? And excuse me, but labeling anything ethnocentric does seem to be a value judgment. > > Using demographics, you could argue that over time, Christianity and Islam were/are _more_ ethnocentric, given their respective power. It’s a comment on general trends in beliefs. I don’t see how it’s that controversial to state that a religion which broadly speaking defines it’s members by their birth (yes it is possible to convert and there’s many different views, but when making any kind of generalization about any religion that consists of a number of different denominations, the brush will necessarily be a broad one) is more ethnocentric than two (again broadly speaking) highly evangelical ones. And like I suggested, it’s not a compeition. I’m not saying Judasim is worse or better than Islam or Christianity. I mentioned Judasim, because you posted something I thought was quite misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/70 "2011-06-30T13:35:28Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > Is the Orthodox religious monopoly in Israel fair? No. Are they elected by a popular vote of the Israeli public? No . And that’s all we needed to hear; thanks. > [@](#): > > It’s a comment on general trends in beliefs. I don’t see how it’s that controversial to state that a religion which broadly speaking defines it’s members by their birth (yes it is possible to convert and there’s many different views, but when making any kind of generalization about any religion that consists of a number of different denominations, the brush will necessarily be a broad one) is more ethnocentric than two (again broadly speaking) highly evangelical ones. I was just wondering if I could be French even though I was born in America? Fucking Francophiles! If you want to label Judaism as ethnocentric, I don’t see it as being any different any other religion who obviously wants to uphold their way of life, no? The only difference is that Jews are a nation. But you may as well call Muslim Arabs ethnocentric while you’re at it. Still, you’re conflating issues of xenophobia with ethnocentricism. Two separate things. > [@](#): > > I mentioned Judasim, because you posted something I thought was quite misleading. What exactly was misleading? The fact that you have to take shit into context? That Judaism isn’t a xenophobic religion? Or are you going to continue to being an armchair Googlist and try to find something that suggests that Israelis or Jews are xenophobic religious fucktards? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/71 "2011-06-30T13:56:33Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > On the contrary. The Israelites believed in a merciful God and was one that was to govern **and favor the Israelites**. Nope. They believed no such thing at that time. They were henotheistic and tribalistic. They believed in a wrathful, jealous god who had to be pacified with animal sacrifices, but had made a special deal with them that he would help them kill other people and take their land in exchange for their obeisance and steady supply of dead animals. > [@](#): > > No one said He had to care for _everyone_. Which is exactly the point of the OP. This is not a loving God or a universal God, and certainly not a moral God. > [@](#): > > eta: the Amelek/ites were the greatest foes Israel ever had Cite? The source for this is only the self-serving propaganda of the Bible itself. Even according the Bible, the imagined offense of the Amelekites against Israel had happened centuries before. How would this justify killing children and babies anyway? The Germans did worse to the Jews, did they not? And that was only a few decades ago. Using the logic of the Bible, the Jews should be justified in slaughtering German babies now. Moreover, the alleged grievance - that the Amelekites had attacked the Israelites during the Exodus - is a demonstrable fictional invention. we know this because there was no Exodus. There was no battle with Moses and Joshua because there was no Moses or Joshua. Those are mythical characters. This passage in I Samuel appeals to a fictional event to try to justify a holocaust. > [@](#): > > you forget that they spared the Kenites for their kindness. > > and the livestock. Irrelevant. Hitler was kind to dogs. That doesn’t excuse atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/72 "2011-06-30T14:01:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That’s a rather centric viewpoint, don’t you think? First calling him the god of the **Old** Testament, and then neglecting to mention that the so-called New Testament is all about Jeebus and not about a people? Of what relevance is the New Testament to how God is characterized in the Hebrew Bible? > [@](#): > > Sheesh. If the Israelites had not been such homicidal jerks, that Jesus guy would’ve never existed. What’s so great about Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/73 "2011-06-30T14:14:40Z")
Dio, why talk to you if you are going to fling ‘the Bible is fiction’ in an argument while also trying to talk as though the Bible were not fiction? I could say to ANY of your points, NO, THAT NEVER HAPPENED! to refute them. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nope. They believed no such thing at that time. They were henotheistic and tribalistic. They believed in a wrathful, jealous god who had to be pacified with animal sacrifices, but had made a special deal with them that he would help them kill other people and take their land in exchange for their obeisance and steady supply of dead animals. > > Which is exactly the point of the OP. This is not a loving God or a universal God, and certainly not a moral God. > > Cite? The source for this is only the self-serving propaganda of the Bible itself. Even according the Bible, the imagined offense of the Amelekites against Israel had happened centuries before. How would this justify killing children and babies anyway? > > The Germans did worse to the Jews, did they not? And that was only a few decades ago. Using the logic of the Bible, the Jews should be justified in slaughtering German babies now. > > Moreover, the alleged grievance - that the Amelekites had attacked the Israelites during the Exodus - is a demonstrable fictional invention. we know this because there was no Exodus. There was no battle with Moses and Joshua because there was no Moses or Joshua. Those are mythical characters. This passage in I Samuel appeals to a fictional event to try to justify a holocaust. > > Irrelevant. Hitler was kind to dogs. That doesn’t excuse atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/74 "2011-06-30T14:18:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > . > > And that’s all we needed to hear; thanks. That’s very childish. i’m sorry but so far you’ve yet to say much qualitively instead you’ve gone in to knee-jerk name calling and insinuations. I’ve yet to establish in my mind what exactly it is you disagree with. > [@](#): > > I was just wondering if I could be French even though I was born in America? Fucking Francophiles! Yes you can, you can also be irrelevant and be French AND be born in America > [@](#): > > If you want to label Judaism as ethnocentric, I don’t see it as being any different any other religion who obviously wants to uphold their way of life, no? The only difference is that Jews are a nation. But you may as well call Muslim Arabs ethnocentric while you’re at it. Well of course a religion that is evangelical and one which is passed via birth are qualitively different. That seems fairly trivial. Judasim is not unique this respect, for example Hinduism has very simlair ideas on conversion and proselytizing. Like I said this is not a competition and I don’t see the connection, less than a fifth of Muslims are Arabs. > [@](#): > > Still, you’re conflating issues of xenophobia with ethnocentricism. Two separate things. I’m not conflating the two. I pointed out a link, it’s far easier for religious xenphobia to exist in a ethnocentric religion than in universalist religion. Of course an ethnocentric religion on the other hand is going to be less agressive in it’s expansionism. > [@](#): > > What exactly was misleading? The fact that you have to take shit into context? That Judaism isn’t a xenophobic religion? Or are you going to continue to being an armchair Googlist and try to find something that suggests that Israelis or Jews are xenophobic religious fucktards? 😕 No that you potrayed Rabbi Dior’s religious xenophobia as extremely uncommon and existing on the absolute periphery of Judasim in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/75 "2011-06-30T14:47:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Cite? Well, let’s start with Zechriah 14:2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the **women ravished** ; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. The following passages all contain incidents of God telling Israelite men to capture women as sex slaves (and not always in battle. The first passage tells the Israelite men to simply go out and kidnap women from Shiloh as they go out to an annual festival for no other reason than that the Benjamites don’t feel they have enough wives to go around. Judges 21: 10-24 Numbers 31:17-18 Deuteronomy 20:10-14 Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Judge 5:30 (“…a woman or **two** to each man.”) Then there’s this little gem where God tells David he will give David’s wives (plural) to David’s neighbor and have the neighbor rape them in front of him (II Samuel 12:11-14) "Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. > [@](#): > > Rape isn’t a non-issue; a whole bloodbath ensued when Dinah was raped. In regards to Devarim, I only see rape mentioned in ch. 22, where the punishment is death. You clearly haven’t studied the Bible very much. I have. Let me educate you. Rape was essentially a property crime. It was only wrong if it was somebody else’s wife or unmarried daughter. It was no crime to rape your own wife, or to rape women taken as hostages (as amply demonstrated above). Moreover, if a man raped a virgin, she had to marry him (Deut. 22:28). This was because she was considered to be damaged property. It was a “you break it, you buy it” policy. Not only that, but if a woman was raped within the confines of a city, _she_ had to be beaten to death with rocks. (Deut. 22:23-24). > [@](#): > > The Amelekites attacked the Israelites after they left Sinai. First of all, no they didn’t because the Israelites were never in Sinai. They were never in Egypt. There was no Exodus, second of all, even if this were believed to be true by the author of that passage, it still referred to an alleged event that had happened centuries earlier and says that God ordered the Israelites to kill babies for something their remote ancestors had done hundreds of years before. It’s a patently stupid and inane justification, and you can’t save it. Why not just admit that the Bible often reflects a backwards and barbaric worldview? It was no worse than any other worldview of the time, but no better either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/76 "2011-06-30T14:47:44Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > you … are as truthful as Barack Obama Looks like you’re trying to call him a lair. You are not allowed to call other posters liars in this forum even if you believe you’ve created a really clever workaround for doing so. Don’t do this again. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > At any rate, there is only one nation in the world that is governed (mostly) by Jewish people, and that nation does not rape and kill all in its path, contrary to what you believe. So this assault on Deuteronomy is a little odd. > [@These are my own pants](#): > > However in modern day Israel there is a religious xenophobic element that exist beyond the fringes. Let’s leave modern day Israel out of this, please. That’s a separate debate that has been done in many other threads and will be again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/77 "2011-06-30T14:51:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I agree. There are none that I’ve ever heard of, and I thought I’ve heard them all. I guess you were wrong, huh? I just cited a bunch of them. > [@](#): > > The passages where it may be instructed to take virgins is a matter of enslaving or marrying them, **not** raping them. This is a distinction without a difference, and as I’ve demonstrated, not all of these women were taken as spoils of war (as if that’s not an atrocity in itself), but were sometimes just kidnapped from other tribes during peacetime, and in at least one passage simply allowed to be raped on the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/78 "2011-06-30T14:52:53Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So says a man who has never studied the Torah. Sounds like he’s studied it pretty well to me. Better than you have. Dawkins was raised in a religious school, so he studied the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/79 "2011-06-30T14:55:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Let’s leave modern day Israel out of this, please. That’s a separate debate that has been done in many other threads and will be again. Yes I agree that this is not the best place, like I said I am not trying to turn it in to yet another ‘Israel thread’. However I don’t believe I was the one to bring up the topic… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/80 "2011-06-30T14:58:58Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > However I don’t believe I was the one to bring up the topic… Fair enough, I see it also came up in **CitizenPained** ’s post. I’m not finding fault with anyone, I am just saying it is time to drop that part of the discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324.md?page=5)