# God: Just kidding, killing is AOK with me. And here's a list of people to whack! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324 "2011-06-29T22:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/101 "2011-07-01T05:06:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I tried to make that point once with Hillel and you said that it doesn’t matter since Jesus is a fable. No I didn’t. Why do you constantly make shit up that people haven’t said? Does that win you a lot of arguments in real life? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/102 "2011-07-01T06:13:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No I didn’t. Why do you constantly make shit up that people haven’t said? Does that win you a lot of arguments in real life? [When I’m right](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&highlight=rabbi+hillel&page=4). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/103 "2011-07-01T06:32:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How the fuck is it NOT? Zechriah 14:2 isn’t telling the Israelites to rape. It’s warning them that because of how evil they are, Jerusalem is going to be taken, sacked, and its women raped. That’s not a commandment to rapine. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/104 "2011-07-01T06:38:38Z")
Well Dio is the expert Armchair Googlist, so let’s give him credit where credit is due. :rolleyes: I like talking about aspects of the Bible, Hebrew or otherwise, as matters of philosophy and literature. But when someone comes at it from an anthro standpoint, then I think it’s important to use filters and some judgment. Context is key. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/105 "2011-07-01T06:43:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > [When I’m right](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&highlight=rabbi+hillel&page=4). You linked to a whole thread which does not contain a post of me saying that “Jesus was a fable.” I never said it, and you haven’t cited it. Either show the exact quote or admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/106 "2011-07-01T06:46:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s not what it says. It says the guy can let her go if he gets tired of raping her. He is not permitted to sleep with her at all at first. > [@](#): > > God threatened to, so what’s the fucking difference? To say you can do something and to actually do something is a difference. You don’t see that? Your cite did not support your claim that there are commandments where God is telling the Hebrews to rape. > [@](#): > > No it isn’t. It just means in daylight, in public sight Did you google that or something? It’s a load of shit. No, I was considering all the other times it has been used and the similar language you find in Deut., also, the commentary of Rashi and the Sandrehin…was that 73b I cited for **Penguin**? If a man has sex with a woman in the city, then it assumed she permitted it as no one heard her cry out. (The fact that the psychology is about 3,000 years old here is problematic, I understand, but that’s another set of issues. Consider context and language.) If a man has sex with a woman in a field, then no one could have heard her cry out, so her charges of rape would stand and we should believe her honor. The wording was a bit ambiguous, but it doesn’t really matter: it never happened in the alleged account of God and David. > [@](#): > > Quite well, actually. I have a shiny little degree to prove it. You’re in over your head here. When you can cite for me that Hebrews used Ancient Greek in recording their works, well talk. Some knowledge in a language does not make you an expert in the Torah. You are the same guy who once tried to invent a Jewish holiday for your claims, not to mention your habit of reinventing what certain Hebrew words mean. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/107 "2011-07-01T06:50:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Well Dio is the expert Armchair Googlist, so let’s give him credit where credit is due. :rolleyes: I don’t need Google. This is my academic background. This is what I studied in College. Your own knowledge seems to consist of googling apologist websites. > [@](#): > > I like talking about aspects of the Bible, Hebrew or otherwise, as matters of philosophy and literature. But when someone comes at it from an anthro standpoint, then I think it’s important to use filters and some judgment. Context is key. Nobody was talking about the Bible anthropologically. The OP was asking how anybody can still hold it up as a moral guide. That is a philosophical/theological question. You are clearly uneducated on Biblical criticism, and know basically nothing about the history of the periods in question. You have a big mouth but little knowledge. You shoudn’t try to argue with people who know more than you. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/108 "2011-07-01T06:55:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t need Google. **This is my academic background. This is what I studied in College.** Your own knowledge seems to consist of googling apologist websites. > > Nobody was talking about the Bible anthropologically. The OP was asking how anybody can still hold it up as a moral guide. That is a philosophical/theological question. > > You are clearly uneducated on Biblical criticism, and know basically nothing about the history of the periods in question. \*\*You have a big mouth but little knowledge. \*\* You shoudn’t try to argue with people who know more than you. So says the man who was false in his claim of Zechriah 14:2 being a commandment where God tells the Hebrews to rape. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/109 "2011-07-01T07:02:42Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > He is not permitted to sleep with her at all at first. The passage doesn’t say that. > [@](#): > > To say you can do something and to actually do something is a difference. You don’t see that? Your cite did not support your claim that there are commandments where God is telling the Hebrews to rape. I provided several. Yahweh is a very rapey God. For some reason you have decided that kidmnapping women and forcing them to become “wives” is not rape. I’ve got news for you, it is rape. > [@](#): > > No, I was considering all the other times it has been used and the similar language you find in Deut., also, the commentary of Rashi and the Sandrehin…was that 73b I cited for **Penguin**? No, you googled apologist bullshit. > [@](#): > > If a man has sex with a woman in the city, then it assumed she permitted it as no one heard her cry out. (The fact that the psychology is about 3,000 years old here is problematic, I understand, but that’s another set of issues. Consider context and language.) There is no language issue, and appealing to historical context is just ceding the point. It was a backwards culture and a backwards morality. This is a moral code that cannot be held as valid today. > [@](#): > > If a man has sex with a woman in a field, then no one could have heard her cry out, so her charges of rape would stand and we should believe her honor. Retard logic. > [@](#): > > The wording was a bit ambiguous No it isn’t. The wording is perfectly clear. There is no linguistic confusion or ambiguity. > [@](#): > > but it doesn’t really matter: it never happened in the alleged account of God and David Irrelevant, God still sees it as a morally justifiable punishment to let another guy rape David’s wives. God, like the rest of the Hebrews, saw women as mere property. > [@](#): > > When you can cite for me that Hebrews used Ancient Greek in recording their works, well talk. Some knowledge in a language does not make you an expert in the Torah. I majored in Religious Studies, not just Classical Languages. I DID study Torah. I studied the entire Hebrew Bible. I studied ancient Judaism. Historical Biblical Criticism and ANE history was what I focused on most. I’m not an exert, no, but I know a hell of lot more than you do. > [@](#): > > You are the same guy who once tried to invent a Jewish holiday for your claims, not to mention your habit of reinventing what certain Hebrew words mean. Can you make one single post without lying through your fucking teeth about what I’ve said? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/110 "2011-07-01T07:05:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So says the man who was false in his claim of Zechriah 14:2 being a commandment where God tells the Hebrews to rape. :rolleyes: It was a passage _approving_ of rape. There are many other passages actually commanding it. Yahweh was all about rape. Even his son was a rape baby. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/111 "2011-07-01T07:08:02Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was a passage _approving_ of rape. No. It was a passage of prophecy. > [@](#): > > There are many other passages actually commanding it. None you could find. > [@](#): > > Yahweh was all about rape. Even his son was a rape baby. HaShem had no son. Dial down the crazy, would ya? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/112 "2011-07-01T07:18:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was a passage _approving_ of rape. There are many other passages actually commanding it. Yahweh was all about rape. Even his son was a rape baby. How does Zech. 14:2 approve of rape? Zech. 14:2 is condemnatory. Zech. 14 is basically, because of your sins, the nations will come against you and sack Jerusalem. Then God will come, take back the city in a way that makes everyone flee in terror, strike plague on the nations that attacked Jerusalem, and then everyone will worship Him. That’s not approval of rape. Rape is just mentioned as one of the bad things that will happen to Jerusalem when it gets sacked. I wonder if the only reason you find it worthy of comment now is because the rules of war have changed, and it’s no longer common or acceptable now in war for the soldiers who take a city to loot it and rape the women? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/113 "2011-07-01T07:26:31Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No. It was a passage of prophecy. A prophecy speaking approvingly of rape. > [@](#): > > None you could find. Except for all the ones I cited. Can you please explain why kidnapping women to take as forced “wives” is not rape? > [@](#): > > HaShem had no son How do you know? > [@](#): > > Dial down the crazy, would ya? I’m only commenting on your own batshit Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/114 "2011-07-01T07:28:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How does Zech. 14:2 approve of rape? Zech. 14:2 is condemnatory. Zech. 14 is basically, because of your sins, the nations will come against you and sack Jerusalem. Then God will come, take back the city in a way that makes everyone flee in terror, strike plague on the nations that attacked Jerusalem, and then everyone will worship Him. > > That’s not approval of rape. Rape is just mentioned as one of the bad things that will happen to Jerusalem when it gets sacked. I wonder if the only reason you find it worthy of comment now is because the rules of war have changed, and it’s no longer common or acceptable now in war for the soldiers who take a city to loot it and rape the women? To keep from getting sidetracked on this passage, I’ll concede it. It still does nothing to wipe away all the other cites, though.The Bible does not see rape as a crime against women, but as a crime against their owners. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/115 "2011-07-01T07:45:53Z")
Option One: Rape and pillage. Option Two: Marry the women. Option Three: Kill em all. Option Two seems rather merciful. Option Four, **Leave the women and children alone** , is not a good option as the women would be dangerous to the men. The fact that Hebrews could take foreign women in as wives and apparently convert them and the wives would have to be treated according to the law is rather surprising, actually. You think a smiting and smoting God would just say to hell with the bitches. 3,000 years ago, women were a matter of property, but it is not so simplistic. Even captured women in war had rights - as noted in the one month mourning period. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/116 "2011-07-01T07:46:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > To keep from getting sidetracked on this passage, I’ll concede it. It still does nothing to wipe away all the other cites, though.The Bible does not see rape as a crime against women, but as a crime against their owners. I think that’s stronger than I’d put it. Women weren’t property in the same way that, say, slaves were property (and Leviticus 19:20 actually makes the distinction, talking about somebody who has sex with someone else’s slave, saying that while he should be punished, he shouldn’t be put to death, because she’s not free, which suggests that there is a legal distinction between slaves and free women), but there’s no question that having sex with someone else’s woman (wife, sister, daughter), either consensual or non, is an insult to him. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/117 "2011-07-01T07:52:39Z")
What I don’t understand is why **Dio** objects to the arranged marriages of these women but not to the slaughter of their fathers and brothers. In regards to warfare, it seems about appropriate: kill or be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/118 "2011-07-01T08:50:30Z")
What is clear from these exchanges is that historical holy texts are a product of their time. They cannot then stand as an immutable guide to human behaviour. When even the concepts of killing, rape, slavery etc. seem open to interpretation then people are right to be suspicious of the whole shebang. People would be a lot happier if they realised that theologians of all stripes, rabbis, bishops, Imams etc. are not in possession of any more facts than the “believer in the street”. They are not the mouthpieces of god, they have merely assumed the responsibility of interpretation for some reason. Actually, there is a clear reason. The concept of an organised religion is pretty much all about control and the power that comes with it. If there is a spectrum of “correct” interpretation than logically there must be someone who is “most correct” Yet the moment they interpret a single word of what was written, they lose all credibility because at that point the texts cease to be the word of god. At that point they…are…guessing, they are making it up and they have no better ability to do that than anyone else. So cut out the middle man I say and make the whole thing up for yourself and be guided by your instinctive social drives (and feel free to change you viewpoint as society develops without looking over your shoulder to see if the man with the beard disapproves). ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/119 "2011-07-01T09:18:06Z")
That is indeed the approach that many post-Enlightenment branches of Bible-based religions (for lack of a better term) have taken - Reform and Liberal Judaism, liberal Christian branches like the United Church of Christ, etc. all reject the idea of divine textual authority and scriptural inerrancy. (Rabbis have never been divine authorities, but that’s a minor point.) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324/120 "2011-07-01T10:08:04Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > That is indeed the approach that many post-Enlightenment branches of Bible-based religions (for lack of a better term) have taken - Reform and Liberal Judaism, liberal Christian branches like the United Church of Christ, etc. all reject the idea of divine textual authority and scriptural inerrancy. (Rabbis have never been divine authorities, but that’s a minor point.) I’m not familiar with any of those but I’ll take a wild stab in the dark and guess that they are all more liberal and accommodating of genders and sexualities than their stricter cousins? Less strict on the “thou shalt not”? Women in positions of authority? Gay marriage etc? “Sensible” is the word I’m looking for here I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-just-kidding-killing-is-aok-with-me-and-heres-a-list-of-people-to-whack/587324.md?page=7)