# God must be a sadist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080 "2012-12-25T01:04:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/261 "2013-01-16T18:55:27Z")
> [@czarcasm](#): > > god: A poorly written fantasy character in public domain. > Christianity: One of many groups of overly dedicated god-larpers that take the game far too seriously. “smite! Smite! Smite! Smite!” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/262 "2013-01-16T18:58:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Except free will was created and given to people by God. Yes, and? If you assert that it’s truly free will, then man is accountable for his deeds. If you assert that man’s will is not truly free, then…I guess Christianity isn’t for you? This happens to me waaay too often, as an atheist I end up defending Christianity as a viable (if mistaken) belief system that people follow in good faith, for reasons that are rational. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/263 "2013-01-16T19:00:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Except free will was created and given to people by God. and ‘God’ being omnipotent and omniscient already knows the outcome - therefore he gave ‘free will’ to shift the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/264 "2013-01-16T19:00:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But it’s not suffering as an end to itself; THAT would be sadism. You’re referring to the Christian doctrine now, not God. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/265 "2013-01-16T19:05:59Z")
> [@simster](#): > > and ‘God’ being omnipotent and omniscient already knows the outcome - therefore he gave ‘free will’ to shift the blame. Thus, man’s will isn’t truly free? I mean, if I had a time-portal I could know what you’d do next, that doesn’t mean I cause you to do it. > [@Marley23](#): > > You’re referring to the Christian doctrine now, not God. Noted. I must not being following you: > [@Marley23](#): > > But God created suffering, and Christian doctrine values suffering as a way to know God and Jesus. Is that supposed to be something God dislikes? The idea that God created suffering does not mean that God desires suffering for its own sake, or works to increase the level of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/266 "2013-01-16T19:08:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The idea that God created suffering does not mean that God desires suffering for its own sake, or works to increase the level of suffering. God created suffering and everything that causes suffering and makes suffering possible, right? Does God make mistakes? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/267 "2013-01-16T19:10:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Exactly, the goals and objectives are largely unknowable, if you accept an omnipotent and omniscient divine being. I do not. For if I did, I would have to conclude that an omnicient and omnipotent being would know every possible avenue of how things could go wrong and then prevent them. He does not appear to do so very effectively. I must therefore conclude that either there is no god, or there is no plan, or the plan is sadistic despite it’s impenetrable objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/268 "2013-01-16T19:22:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > God created suffering and everything that causes suffering and makes suffering possible, right? Does God make mistakes? Note my use of “suffering for its own sake.” Are we still talking sadism here, as in suffering inflicted for pleasure? Because suffering could either be neutral, just a result of a world of cause-and-effect, it could have some higher purpose (such as spiritual growth), or suffering might not be a big deal to a timeless entity that created souls to live 0-120 years in bodies, then eternity without them. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I do not. For if I did, I would have to conclude that an omnicient and omnipotent being would know every possible avenue of how things could go wrong and then prevent them. He does not appear to do so very effectively. I must therefore conclude that either there is no god, or there is no plan, or the plan is sadistic despite it’s impenetrable objectives. Well, there’s the real answer: God’s not a sadist because there is no God. But a theist can also posit that God isn’t a sadist, and make a decent case for it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/269 "2013-01-16T19:27:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Thus, man’s will isn’t truly free? I mean, if I had a time-portal I could know what you’d do next, that doesn’t mean I cause you to do it. But if you had teh power to prevent suffering - and lets use the best example - say cancer in children and puppies - and yet you did nothing because it serves your ‘greater plan’ - then you are a sadist. God supposedly has the power to do both - and yet he does nothing to prevent. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/270 "2013-01-16T19:29:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But a theist can also posit that God isn’t a sadist, and make a decent case for it. A “deist” could - but not a bible thumping “god has a plan” theist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/271 "2013-01-16T19:46:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Note my use of “suffering for its own sake.” I did. > [@](#): > > Because suffering could either be neutral, just a result of a world of cause-and-effect, it could have some higher purpose (such as spiritual growth), or suffering might not be a big deal to a timeless entity that created souls to live 0-120 years in bodies, then eternity without them. It can’t be neutral or ‘just a result’ unless you discount a bunch of other Christian beliefs. The idea Christian God isn’t sadistic because he doesn’t think human suffering is a big deal at all does the same and has the added bonus of being pretty funny. So this doesn’t contradict the sadistic theory. God created suffering and made it an unavoidable aspect of human existence (through the free will God also created), it’s an important belief in Christianity that Jesus’s suffering redeemed humanity, and many Christians believe they grow closer to God through suffering. So this kind of boils down to an insistence that God doesn’t like a thing he made. > [@](#): > > Well, there’s the real answer: God’s not a sadist because there is no God. I agree. But we’re talking about the Judeochristian god here. There’s no reason you can’t say that character is sadistic. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/272 "2013-01-16T19:48:47Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But if you had teh power to prevent suffering - and lets use the best example - say cancer in children and puppies - and yet you did nothing because it serves your ‘greater plan’ - then you are a sadist. > > God supposedly has the power to do both - and yet he does nothing to prevent. We must have wildly divergent definitions of sadism. Also, what if the sum of the greater plan really does outweigh human suffering? By having no way of knowing what the greater plan is, we’re unable to evaluate it. > [@simster](#): > > A “deist” could - but not a bible thumping “god has a plan” theist. Sure they can. I’ll do it right now: Option 1: No Plan There is no “plan”. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.” IF we believe. That means God can’t choose for us, we all have free will, and the evil we do to one another is our own fault. Option 2: Unknowable Plan There is a “plan”, but we can’t judge it because we don’t know it. Option 3: Predestination God knows who’ll be saved and who won’t, and makes sure only those that aren’t worthy of his Paradise suffer, because they deserve it, being flawed in some way that we cannot perceive with our human senses. Option 4: The Price We Pay Some suffering is God’s price for eternal Paradise. It makes sure we appreciate it; if everything on Earth were perfect, we’d be unable to enjoy Heaven because we’d have no contrast. Option 5: Satan God hates suffering, but Satan is nearly as powerful as God, and slips some suffering into the world here and there. Option 6: Object Lesson God makes some suffer, to spur people to receive salvation to ensure that they’ll reach Heaven. If there was no suffering, no one would feel the need to be saved, and we’d be denied Paradise, since God can’t choose it for us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/273 "2013-01-16T19:51:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure they can. I’ll do it right now: Only one of these is even arguably deistic. The rest are obviously not, and you even used the word “plan” in one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/274 "2013-01-16T20:00:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It can’t be neutral or ‘just a result’ unless you discount a bunch of other Christian beliefs. The idea Christian God isn’t sadistic because he doesn’t think human suffering is a big deal at all does the same and has the added bonus of being pretty funny. > So this doesn’t contradict the sadistic theory. God created suffering and made it an unavoidable aspect of human existence (through the free will God also created), it’s an important belief in Christianity that Jesus’s suffering redeemed humanity, and many Christians believe they grow closer to God through suffering. So this kind of boils down to an insistence that God doesn’t like a thing he made. > > I agree. But we’re talking about the Judeochristian god here. There’s no reason you can’t say that character is sadistic. For the record, I don’t think a timeless omnipotent omniscient being would be able to conceive of or understand human suffering. If suffering is an inevitable consequence of free will, than it might just mean that God held free will to be the most important aspect of humanity, regardless of consequences. > [@Marley23](#): > > Only one of these is even arguably deistic. The rest are obviously not, and you even used the word “plan” in one. **simster** claimed that a _theist_ could not make a case that God was not a sadist. I dashed off six arguments to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/275 "2013-01-16T20:07:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > **simster** claimed that a _theist_ could not make a case that God was not a sadist. I dashed off six arguments to the contrary. Quoting again: > [@simster](#): > > A “deist” could - but not a bible thumping “god has a plan” theist. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/276 "2013-01-16T20:07:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > We must have wildly divergent definitions of sadism. > > Also, what if the sum of the greater plan really does outweigh human suffering? By having no way of knowing what the greater plan is, we’re unable to evaluate it. > > Sure they can. I’ll do it right now: > > Option 1: No Plan > > There is no “plan”. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.” IF we believe. That means God can’t choose for us, we all have free will, and the evil we do to one another is our own fault. > > Option 2: Unknowable Plan > > There is a “plan”, but we can’t judge it because we don’t know it. > > Option 3: Predestination > > God knows who’ll be saved and who won’t, and makes sure only those that aren’t worthy of his Paradise suffer, because they deserve it, being flawed in some way that we cannot perceive with our human senses. > > Option 4: The Price We Pay > > Some suffering is God’s price for eternal Paradise. It makes sure we appreciate it; if everything on Earth were perfect, we’d be unable to enjoy Heaven because we’d have no contrast. > > Option 5: Satan > > God hates suffering, but Satan is nearly as powerful as God, and slips some suffering into the world here and there. > > Option 6: Object Lesson > > God makes some suffer, to spur people to receive salvation to ensure that they’ll reach Heaven. If there was no suffering, no one would feel the need to be saved, and we’d be denied Paradise, since God can’t choose it for us. My definition of sadist/sadism - A person deriving a benefit - usually pleasure, but not neccisarily so, by the needless suffering of others that they either directly cause or could atleast prevent - On the latter, prevention, I hold ‘GOD’ to a higher standard. Option 1: Then what are we talking about? If there is no ‘plan’ then all of this is even more needless - and yet he allows it anyway - why? Option 2: Then all the suffering that is attributed as “gods plan” speaks ill of God and his plan and yet he lets us believe it when he is powerful enough to change it - since he does not, it benefits him in some way. Option 3: “For god so loved the world that he sent his son so that ALL could be saved” - since some will not be - by design - there must be some benefit to the suffering (as stated in 4 and 6 below) - since there is a benefit (to God) - he is pleased by the results - God is a sadist. Option 4: same as option 6 Option 5: God created satan - god has the power to stop satan - god chooses not to. Option 6: god wants us in paradise - it pleases him - suffereing causes people to choose paradise/god - god is happy - God is a sadist. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/277 "2013-01-16T20:14:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Quoting again: One of us is mistaken. Here’s the sequence: > [@Human Action](#): > > But a theist can also posit that God isn’t a sadist, and make a decent case for it. > [@simster](#): > > A “deist” could - but not a bible thumping “god has a plan” theist. > [@Human Action](#): > > Sure they can. I’ll do it right now: Either I’m going senile very early, or **simster** ’s saying that while a deist _could_ make a case for a non-sadistic God, a theist _could not_, and I’m disagreeing: a theist _could_. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/278 "2013-01-16T20:18:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > One of us is mistaken. Here’s the sequence: > > Either I’m going senile very early, or **simster** ’s saying that while a deist _could_ make a case for a non-sadistic God, a theist _could not_, and I’m disagreeing: a theist _could_. And none of your arguments are even remotely close - and it was a “bible thumping ‘god has a plan’ theist” - not just any average theist that wants to pick and chose what the bible says about god and what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/279 "2013-01-16T20:31:15Z")
to late to edit - a Deist would simply say “God created us - then left us to our own path - he has no interest at all in our actions” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080/280 "2013-01-16T20:43:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > My definition of sadist/sadism - A person deriving a benefit - usually pleasure, but not neccisarily so, by the needless suffering of others that they either directly cause or could atleast prevent - On the latter, prevention, I hold ‘GOD’ to a higher standard. For the record, the Merriam-Webster definition: 1: a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) — compare masochism 2 a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty As to your definition, if the suffering is needless, how can it provide a benefit? Needless means not needed or unnecessary. If we revise it to “A person deriving a benefit - usually pleasure, but not necessarily so - by the suffering of others that they either directly cause or could at least prevent”, then it must only be argued that suffering benefits mankind as well, or does not benefit God. Simple enough. > [@simster](#): > > And none of your arguments are even remotely close - > > and it was a “bible thumping ‘god has a plan’ theist” - not just any average theist that wants to pick and chose what the bible says about god and what they want to believe. Ok, so how can someone who believes in a divine plan make a case that God’s not a sadist? That would be Options 2, 3, 4, and 6, yes? I’ll address them, then. > [@Human Action](#): > > Option 2: Unknowable Plan > > There is a “plan”, but we can’t judge it because we don’t know it. > [@simster](#): > > Option 2: Then all the suffering that is attributed as “gods plan” speaks ill of God and his plan and yet he lets us believe it when he is powerful enough to change it - since he does not, it benefits him in some way. Ah, but the suffering we face is the _minimum_ amount possible under God’s plan. He can’t control what we believe, for we have free will. And the plan will be worth it in the end! We just don’t know what it is. > [@Human Action](#): > > Option 3: Predestination > > God knows who’ll be saved and who won’t, and makes sure only those that aren’t worthy of his Paradise suffer, because they deserve it, being flawed in some way that we cannot perceive with our human senses. > [@simster](#): > > Option 3: “For god so loved the world that he sent his son so that ALL could be saved” - since some will not be - by design - there must be some benefit to the suffering (as stated in 4 and 6 below) - since there is a benefit (to God) - he is pleased by the results - God is a sadist. “For many are called, but few [are] chosen.” (Matthew 22:14, KJV) “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:15-18 God knows who’s worthy and who isn’t, but we humans don’t. Only the bad people will suffer. We just don’t know what makes people bad, only God does, because he knows all, and we have only our senses and weak minds. The benefit is to all of us good people, not to God. > [@Human Action](#): > > Option 4: The Price We Pay > > Some suffering is God’s price for eternal Paradise. It makes sure we appreciate it; if everything on Earth were perfect, we’d be unable to enjoy Heaven because we’d have no contrast. > [@simster](#): > > Option 4: same as option 6 What is Heaven if no one can appreciate it? No Paradise! > [@Human Action](#): > > Option 6: Object Lesson > > God makes some suffer, to spur people to receive salvation to ensure that they’ll reach Heaven. If there was no suffering, no one would feel the need to be saved, and we’d be denied Paradise, since God can’t choose it for us. > [@simster](#): > > Option 6: god wants us in paradise - it pleases him - suffereing causes people to choose paradise/god - god is happy - God is a sadist. Paradise is for us! It benefits us, not God, it’s his gift. If he was only concerned with getting people there, then there’d be no free will. Clearly, just getting people in isn’t his goal. > [@simster](#): > > to late to edit - a Deist would simply say “God created us - then left us to our own path - he has no interest at all in our actions” Yes, that’d be the deist argument. But you claimed there was no case to be made by theists, and a specific breed at that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-must-be-a-sadist/645080.md?page=15)